Hi Eric, well, there is a lot going on here! Don't try to match the Remington Core-lokt bullet, because it doesn't really help you much, the core-lokts are slow because folks use them in older 45-70 rifles so they don't blow them up!!
Loading for the 45-70 isn't difficult but lets start with the basics:
1) Have you slugged your barrel?
2) The bullet from Beartooth is a good one, I have some, but how fast do you intend on shooting it???
3) Are you going to use these for just hunting? Or do you need something for target as well?
4) What kind of powder are you planning to use? Or do you want suggestions!

 

Yea I should have clarified I guess about the Remington 405 ammo comparison, all I know is what I have read and I have read that it is an easy shooting and accurate load that does well with many people. My plan is to try to develop a load that is not more than 2000fps, easy to shoot, above all is accurate and can do double duty for hunting and occasional fun at the range. As for powders.... I'll take whatever suggestions I can get, the more options I have the better since powder supply is still hit and miss. I have some IMR 4198, H355, IMR 4064, varget, and IMR 4831. Not all of which are suitable for the 45-70, but it is simply just what I have on hand.

As you can tell, I am open to a whole lot of suggestion and room for variance, I know that. My two main objectives though is accuracy and ability to target and hunt with it. Hunting would be deer mostly.

No I have not slugged my barrel. I know that is the proper thing to do, and if I have to I will try it with a #8 sinker. But Im not fond of the idea of jaming a hunk of lead in my barrel LOL! I am unclear though rather this is done at the breech or crown end. I was hoping to just go with the .460 size and see how I do.

 

Eric,

Yes indeed that can be an issue!!!!!!!!!!

I'm maybe about 6 - 7 years ahead of you with the 45/70, but am a long term handloader from the late 60 or very early 70s.

So with the typical "high velocity" centerfire cartridges which are on most everyone's plate, loading for the 45/70 was a challenge and required that I relearn some of what I thought I knew about what I thought I knew.

Typically, I would go to a loading manual, chose the powders which were shown to give the best performance/velocity/groups and beginning at or near the suggested minimum loads I begin my work up towards the max while shooting test groups and in later years watching the groups and velocities.

Seemed that most times I would find the best groups showing up as I approached the maximum listed loads. I know that many folk say they see their best groups at lower pressure/velocity levels, but for me it didn't work that way.

Then, I like to maximize a load for a given cartridge/firearm, feeling that it made no sense to, for example shoot a 30/06 at .308 velocities when I could have saved money on the brass and powder by just buying a .308 if the performance of a .308 was what I wanted.

OK, that didn't work so well with the 45/70.

I did a good amount of testing with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet at velocities above 2000fps, testing to slightly above 2500fps and hunting the first Fall with a load traveling just over 2300fps.

Let me tell you, that the WFN bullet is highly effective, and I never again want to see the size wound channel that bullet and velocity provided. Just too much of a bad thing. Plus, that bullet just never gave me the consistency or groups I desired.

What to do. Well I got some good council over on the Cast Boolit forum, another good place to make contact with experienced cast bullet loaders and shooters, and found out that many times the 45/70 will just shoot cast bullets of over 400gr better then those of a lighter weight.

Then I was fortunate to have one of those folk also be a custom mold maker of high quality molds and I chose to have him make me a 4 cavity mold for a 465gr WFN, as well as give me some other good tips and even a powder and powder charge that proved to be spot on in my rifle. 47.5gr of H335 behind the 465gr WFN is awesome at 1650fps. Has proven itself on a bunch of deer and a couple elk at this time.

OK, so back to your question on coming up with 45/70 loads.

With the mild to wild loads shown and safe to use providing you choose the correct levels for your type of firearm, just KNOW that a lower level load listed for the Trapdoor Spring field will be safe in your modern Marlin, and in fact likely all you need for all your hunting.

Forget warp velocities! They are not needed, and they will likely be overly destructive on both game and your shoulder.

If you trying for extended ranges at which to shoot your game, well, plain and simple there are just many other cartridges much better suited for that.

The use of a 45/70 for hunting takes a different mind set just like it takes a different approach for hand loading. DON'T TRY TO MAKE THIS GRAND OLD CARTRIDGE INTO WHAT IT ISN'T AND NEVER WILL BE!

So, all that to simply say this, a book such as the Lyman cast bullet book is a good place to start, and using published data as a check and balance, team up with some of the experienced folk on this forum or on Cast Boolits.

So, fear not to begin load development at Trapdoor Springfield levels and know that a Wide Flat Nose cast bullet of something over 400gr and fired at a velocity somewhere in the mid 1000 - 2000fps range is flat out deadly.

I am hunting with loads that are waaaaaay below the possible levels safe to use in my RUGER #1 and believe me when I say it will take anything in this half of the world and most everything else to boot.

Love to chat with ya, so don't fear asking more questions or even sending some of us a "P.M." for something more up close and personal.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

Hornady, Speer & Sierra primarily manufacture jacketed bullets, so it's not surprising their manuals are not very helpful for cast lead bullets. Try looking at the manufacturer's website for the powder you intend to use, as most have a sample of load data for a variety of cast bullets. You'll also find that most cast bullet load data falls in the lower-pressure Trapdoor category for 45-70 rifles. I would start with the Trapdoor load data and work up from there. I'm not sure how much more speed as well as pressure tolerance the gas check will give you, but if you start to see leading in your barrel as you work your way up, then you've reached the limit. There's only so much pressure a cast bullet can withstand and still hold up.

Below is a handy chart that shows how much pressure a bullet of a certain hardness number can withstand, and keep in mind a modern 1895 rifle itself can only take up to 40k in chamber pressure. Your Beartooth bullets are rated at 21 BHN, which can take up to 27k to 29k in pressure, but that doesn't take into account the gas check. Load data for a given bullet normally gives you the pressure range for a certain powder and load, so you can select a combination that does not exceed the pressures for your given bullet and work it up from there. In addition to leading in your barrel, be looking for signs of excessive pressure on your cases, such as flattened primers, etc. Hopefully, someone with more experience regarding gas checks will chime in.

Lee Brinell Hardness Test Chart

 

Okay, slugging your bore is something that you should do for any rifle you are going to put cast bullets through....it doesn't hurt the rifle and is easy to do. Once you have done it once you'll see!
Now, WHY do you do that? So you don't lead your barrel and so that the bullet moves along the barrel and properly grabs the grooves and leaves your barrel going down range accurately! It doesn't "just happen".
So, once you have slugged the barrel, (you will see lands and grooves) measure the grooves
you'll probably come out somewhere around .459 or .460. Once you know for sure you should add .001 or .002 to the diarmeter bullet you want to use. Getting a 460 diameter bullet doesn't help if you need a 462!! marlin bores tend to run a little large!
Powder wise you are good to go, I use IMR-4198 for my 45-70's.
Oh, look on Midway USA or wherever for Load Book USA, it's a small book that is "per caliber" so, purchase the 45-70 book and you will have a ton of load data from bullet and powder mfg's. If you don't find the exact weight bullet, I get the closest bullet that is heavier and reduce the minimum load...usually about 10%. Always start light.
For example, for a non-gas checked 405gr bullet (I get mine from Missouri Bullet Company) I started loading at 28gr's of IMR-4198, I've loaded this bullet up to 32gr's with zero issues. Easy on the shoulder but more than enough to get the job done for target.
Now, if you want to hunt, you could push that load further, but definitely you'd want to use a GC'd bullet, this is where the bear tooth bullet comes in. I'd START loading that at 34gr's of IMR-4198 and go from there. Check the load manuals but I believe 42gr's is on the high end.
As CDOC suggested above you don't need to send this bullet down range fast, with 34gr's of IMR-4198 you should already be at 1400fps or better....depending on barrel length.
There are Sooooo many opinions on how to load this cartridge...and I'd say they're probably all going to be correct....it's going to be what YOU like that will be what matters at the end of the day!
Personally my hunting round for my 45-70 SBL is a Bear tooth Bullet 425gr WFNGC bullet with 36gr's of IMR-4198. This will kill anything on the planet within 200 yds (which is the max I'd shoot anyway).

 

Awesome responses! I really like this forum!

 

I guess I could chip in here about casting (been doing it for 40+ years). As a general rule (lots of variable here) plain base bullets can be driven to 1500 fps and gas check to 2000 fps without to many problems. My elk load for 375 is a 270 gas check (soft alloy) on top of 30 gr Re7 for 1970 fps. This is out of a model 94BB that has very smooth rifling - can get about 10 shots before it gets a light amout of leading. Don't ever let it build up or your in for a chore. My oldest son is my hunting partner and he really likes my 375 - he's seen it make a lot of meat - keeps "borrowing" it up at elk camp. Well, that was my excuse for buying a 1985G as I had been thinking this was the perfect brush rifle. My mold for 45-70 is the lyman 400 shay design plain and was leading the bore at 1500 fps - ok, not bad, but I'm kinda like if a little is good a lot is better! I had been reading a lot about powder coated cast bullets (go ahead and google it - you know you want to) and decided to try the shake and bake method as it costs very little. I'm driving these 420 gr bullets (yea, my alloy is that soft) at 1700 fps with no fouling. Shot 40 of these fairly fast at my 100 yard gong and only had normal powder fouling. I got into casting a long time ago and had no one to menter me. Using the then current Lyman cast bullet handbook as my "bible" I started getting good results. Thinking at that time was to size at or slightly (half a thousands) above bore diameter and use a soft alloy for hunting - expect a small amount of leading after 5- 10 shots and give your rifle a good cleaning. I've never recovered my soft alloy bullet from an elk, and have sometimes had to shoot through both shoulders breaking a lot of bone. I'm looking forward to next season so I can try powder coat bullets on game - my testing so far has me thinking this is the way to go. Best regards and good luck!

 

Here's 3 pages on it

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/45-70-govt/158600-load-suggestion-405gr-cast-3.html#post1980265

 

I really am glad I found MO. I'm learning every day. Eric, great question. I jumped I to this pretty fast I guess because I am not familiar with slugging a barrel. The concept makes sense. I had just started loading and shooting. Any guidance to "slugging a barrel" would be appreciated.
Thanks
Baker

 

I won't buy a mold until I slug the bore. It's easy to do - don't get scared. Use a pure lead round ball or sinker of theright size (round balls can be made bigger with a hammer) and drive through the bore with a wood dowel. I like to drive from the breech (yea, big PITA on a winchester) although many say it is safe to do from the muzell. Measure with a micrometer and you're done. BTW imagine the satisfaction when you get your critter with your HOME MADE BULLET!

 

For slugs go to Dardas bullet company or bear tooth bullets. They have what you need.

 

H322 and fed 210 match primers in Winchester brass. My rifle makes over 2k fps because she's got a long barrel.

 

Welcome to MO




Hey Eric,

Welcome to MO.

Pay mind to what Crusty is talking about.

For good low velocity (1150 fps) fun, look here Lever Gun Performance Studies Mostly "echoes" data from the old Sharpe(s)? Reloading Manual (around WWI)

With a 405 gr cast bullet, have enjoyed good success with 13.7 grains of Universal Clays, and 15.0 gr HS 6. Both clock at 1150 fps (power factor is about 450 vs the power factor of the 30-06 of about 435) Cast bullet will penetrate about 15 one gallon milk jugs, filled with water. (about four venison, if you could get them to line up):biggrin:

After going through a cow!

A lot of folk have enjoyed success with 24 to 25 gr of 2400.

A good source for .460" bullets is Penn Bullets INC. | Custom Cast Bullets as is Moyer's Cast Bullets, cast lead handgun, cast lead rifle bullets

Here are a couple of targets, at varying ranges.......from fifty to 200 yards, using the Skinner Sights. All the details are posted here http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/45-70-govt/78432-1895-cb-skinner-sight.html

Later, Mark

 

I use Hodgens recipe for trapdoor loads and a 405 grain bullet. Imr 4064 powder. And boy do those cases need a ton of it with this powder to even be at trap door levels.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that EVERYTHING you do is a "variable" to the type of powder you use, to the type/weight/shape/dia of bullet you plan on using, how much crimp you apply, brass type (they are different lengths/thicknesses)....change ONE thing and you need to re-do your reloading calcs. So, that said to keep things as simple as you can, AND so that if you run into a snag it's easier for us to help you, do this:
1) Pick a bullet for target (if you shoot target) I'd recommend something like the Dardas 350gr bullet, very nice, and very reasonably priced...plus it's easy on the shoulder!!
2) Pick a bullet for hunting (the 405gr bear tooth bullet is a good choice)
3) Pick a Primer (Large Rifle)...I usually base it on what is available in my area. I've used most of them so buy a 1000 and stick with the same brand (CCI, Winchester, Remington).
4) Pick a powder...now this is where you need to be looking at the reloading manuals....now this is tricky, you can get a faster burning powder which allows you to have a LOT of variation in loads....something like IMR-4198 OR something that burns slower like IMR 4064. The slower the powder the more of it you need to get the speed up. this is good and bad but watch for compressed loads (where the bullet actually pushes down on the powder) when you start moving faster. There is no perfect powder, they all 'feel' different when you shoot them. No wrong choice here but my rule of thumb when starting something new is to find a powder that is used in the MOST loads from the "trapdoor" to the "lever gun" loads. Stay away from the "MODERN" rifle loads...those are normally too hot for the Marlins!!!
Once you do 1-4 you are ready to start figuring out where to "start" your load powder weights. We can help with that, most of us have records of loads that are very light weight that you can easily start with and can help you along.
For simplicity you do NOT want to change too many things at once....you WILL forget what you did, and even if you right it down there will be too many variables to figure out which "fix" actually made the most difference!!
Good luck!! This is actually fun and not rocket science...safety first! Always! Oh and ALWAYS keep written records of what you do for each load! Put a note on the box of ammo so you know what bullet/powder weight you used at the very least. But you should be keeping a notebook with all the components you used to build that piece of ammo and the OAL and anything else that needs to be in there so that you can duplicate that load when you change it to load another type of bullet or whatever.
Cheers!
Mazer

 

I found suitable loads in my Lyman 49th. Another thing I've done is simply contact the powder manufacturers, any one of them will be happy to help you. Unfortunately this approach is only effective if you know what powder you'll be using.
Another thing to remember is a good jacketed powder doesn't necessarily make a good cast powder, & vice verse. I'm not a fan of going much over Trapdoor levels in mine, I believe there's simply no need to punish myself or my rifle. A 405 in the low 14's is plenty.
My personal powder of choice is AA 5744. I like it because it's very bulky and does a great job of filling the case up, which I believe leads to better accuracy & ignition consistency. It's also clean burning, with the exception of leaving unburned powder in the bore, but it wipes out easily. It's also a very versatile powder, capable of being loaded from mild to wild.
My decision to try that powder came from doing research on various websites, reading performance reviews, and the simple fact that I'm fond of Accurate products. Once I made my powder & bullet choice the rest was pretty easy.
GH1

 

I'd be afraid of getting a lead slug stuck in my bore. If I want to slug a barrel I use wax. But it is a whole lot easier to just recover one of your bullets and measure that. YMMV just be careful not to hammer a chunk of lead halfway down your barrel and get it stuck there.

 

groovy mike, never had that happen...just start with a soft piece of lead that is properly sized and the only real resistance you should have is the initial tapping it into the front of the barrel, it should slide down there with little resistance!! Lube the barrel first AND of course lube the piece of lead!!!! But, I suppose Wax would work too....never tried that. :biggrin:

 

Does anyone have feedback on Cast Performance Bullets ? I see them sold on Midway website. Seem to have positive reviews.

 

vietnam71 you can certainly shop there, but shopping the folks that make the bullets is usually always cheaper...and no by a little bit. What are you looking for?? Caliber, weight and diameter??

 

You are right. I happened to see them on Midway site. I then visited the manufacture website. I was just checking to see if others on this forum had used Cast Performance bullets before and if they had positive feedback.

I got 5 boxes of Remington 405gr JSP as a gift and once fired will use the brass for reloading.

45-70 405gr .459
44 240gr .430

 

Shooting 405gr vast at 2000fps is pure stupidity.

You are defeating the one thing the 45/70 exceeds at. meat penetration.

At 1400fps a 405gr cast round will penetrate 8 feet plus meat at 100 yards. At 2000fps you get 2 feet of penetration.

You must find a happy medium between fps and accuracy. Not the all mighty how fast you can make it go

 

I find the slow loads more pleasant to shoot and just as accurate as well.

 

Vietnam71.

Buy Starline brass!

A 1/3 or more less in cost then Remington and Winchester and a very good product!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

Thanks for the advice,

I purchased 50 pieces of Starline now just waiting for bullets. I want to load different types to see what the rifle likes. When I fire the 5 boxes of Remington that will give me 150 pieces of brass which should last a long while. I'm just glad to be having fun again after open heart surgery. These 62 year old bones are tired been a rough couple years health wise. I survived a sudden cardiac death 2011 and had by-pass in April.

 

I can't argue with any of the comments above.
However, my approach has been to shoot first, then slug the bore if necessary.
I always have sized 459or .460 and have never had to slug a 45/70.The same approach is used for .30 cal....size at .312.All bullets are hard as well.

 

Hate to say it in front of everyone, but I'm with pis1911.

There is little to hurt with bigger being better, meaning that should the bore slug out at .459, a typical cast bullet of .460 or even .461 will not give hazardous pressure issues. Maybe not the best accuracy, but no safety issues.

No question that slugging is the way to go, but typically bigger is better then the other direction.

If a person carries this to an extreme however, you may run into bullet seating issues where you shave lead or if neck pressure is too great, it may down size the bullet dia. in which case you would need a larger neck expander in the second die of a three die set.

OR --------- a Lyman "M" die with a custom made expander plug to prevent such issues.

RCBS makes different sizes of expander/case mouth flaring plugs, but sorry to say I haven't seen those for the 45/70. 30 caliber yes, but have seen no listings for any thing larger then .416 caliber.

Thankfully, my 3 die set of Hornady 45/70 dies work great in all respects.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot