I sprung my replica 1866 rifle with some factory .38 special loads.

 

Keep your .44 WCF loads to 14,000 psi,same as factory loads. If you want a more powerful rifle,go buy one chambered to .44 Mag. You only get issued one face and two hands. Try to keep them safe.


Rob

 

Keep your .44 WCF loads to 14,00 psi,same as factory loads. If you want a more powerful rifle,go buy one chambered to .44 Mag. You only get issued one face and two hands. Try to keep them safe.


Rob

For whatever it's worth

SAAMI MAX PRESSURES 2015 research updated.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf

Page 33,.......44-40 MAP PSI is 11,000.
Page 356, ....44-40 MAP CUP is 13,000.
Page 360,..... 44-40 MAP PSI is 11,000.

However, CIP claims 15,954 psi and 15,000 cup in which 14,000psi falls under!!!!!!!

Both SAAMI and CIP using the Transducer (psi) and Crusher (cup) methods

...blows my mind but...........

 

A charge of 23.5 grains of Alliant RL7 with a 200-240 grain lead bullet and is safe in the Winchester 73 and gives 1300 fps from a 20" barrel. Hercules Data from 1995 and Aliant Data from 2005 below:

 

A charge of 24.5 grains of Alliant RL7 with 200-230 grain cast bullet is safe in the Winchester 73 and gives 1350 fps from a 20" barrel.

I use 23.5 gr RL7 with a 200 gr XTP at 1170 fps.

 

My buddy has shot two very impressive bucks with a 73 Uberti chambered in 44-40. With JSP bullets and a full case of Hodgdon triple 7 both buck only took a few steps.

 

thanks guys

 

I shoot a uberti 66. 35 grains of goex xx under a 200 grain lead rnfp. It clocks 1120fps out of the 19 inch barrel. For smokeless, 6.5 grains of unique under the same bullet for 1024 fps. I have seem several toggle links bent by hot loads or firing out of battery in cowboy action shooting.

 

From what I've read, Uberti uses stronger, differently heat treated internal parts on their .44 magnum '73.
They warn that the corresponding parts on the .44-40/.45Colt versions are not the same, and not to assume you can load heavy just because there is a seemingly identical model in .44 mag.
As far as I know, no similar info is available as yet from Winchester/Miroku.
I would definitely NOT hot load the .44-40.
In any case, the .44-40 is quite a capable performer on whitetail size animals, at iron sight ranges in it's original performance envelope.
I've taken lots of deer at ranges out to about 70 yards with blackpowder loaded .44-40's in original '73's and Colt's Lightning rifles, and even from a 7.5" Colt's Peacemaker.

 

What I don't understand it how we can shoot a 44 mag in a handgun with no head support and no issues and yet we need to worry about bolt thrust in a rifle. The only 73's I ever saw pictures of that failed burst the barrel in the chamber. I do see how toggles can wear but have to wonder why a new 73 wouldn't be pretty robust.
Now I also will agree that the 44 WCF is a pretty good number as loaded in 1873.

 

Just food for thought. If the links break in the toģgle link guns, you have the bolt exiting the rear in the direction of your face. That alone is enough to keep me from hot rodding it. I have a turnbull/mikoru winchester 92 in 44-40 that I shoot the warm loads in.

 

The Uberti 1873 that my buddy's widow brings here to shoot is chambered to .45 Colt,which has a SAAMI MAP spec of 14,400 psi. The .44 WCF has the same rim diameter and case head diameter as the .45 Colt,so the back thrust will be very similar with equal bullet weight and velocity. That's where I got the !4,000 psi limit in my last post. Mild enough not to stress the toggle links,but enough power for shooting steel plates and deer killing if you want to.



Rob

 

a 44 mag in a handgun with no head support and no issues
and yet we need to worry about bolt thrust in a rifle.

Apples vs bananas ... two totally different phenomena.

...and tell us again about not having any head support -- given a totally-enclosed case to to the rim, and a solid monolithic steel recoil shield behind the rim held by a solid steel H-configuration top strap/frame bottom.

The `73 has only three link pins holding the bolt together.
-- strong enough for intended design loads at the time --
but then God decided twin vertical locking bolts was even better.

 

Uberti makes a .44 mag 1873. Hate spell check!

 

I have seen converted .44-40s that the owner shot mild .44s in. I don't like the idea. Even with modern steel, I would default to a newer design like the 92. The 60/66/73 design is smooth, but there just isn't enough inherent strength in the design to give me confidence in it's ability to hold up to repeated use with the bolt thrust of a modern high pressure cartridge.

 

Yep. as much as I would like a 66 I will stick with my 92s!

 

I'm late to the conversation here, and I won't argue the
toggle link vs stronger/better designed actions...I think that
should speak for itself and stand on it's own to anyone who
cares to look into it.
I restored a late 1890's Marlin 1894 in 44-40 several years ago,
that I built from various parts I compiled here and there.
I did a LOT of load testing and development once I got the rifle
done, because I wanted to duplicate the original 44-40 rifle
loads of the early days...the ones that were not safe for toggle
link rifles and said model 92 only on the box.
Here in an paragraph from the article that got me interested-

Soon after Winchester introduced the Model 92, a high-velocity loading with a 200-gr. bullet at 1500 f.p.s. became available. Written on the box was a warning against its use in the Model 1873. Group 2 loads in the Lyman manuals are for stronger actions such as the Winchester 92 and Marlin 1894. Maximum pressure is 22,000 c.u.p., with some velocities actually exceeding that of the old Winchester high-velocity load. While Lyman’s maximum loads are deemed safe for use in a Group 2 rifle in serviceable condition, case life may be short. The first rifle in .44-40 Win. I handloaded for, a Spanish copy of the Winchester Model 92 called El Tigre, performed best with a 200-gr. bullet at 1400 to 1500 f.p.s. Case life and effectiveness on deer were quite good.


And yes, I did find a load that duplicated this velocity, and it shot very well in my restored
Marlin early 94. I still shoot almost the same load in a Win 94AE 44mag using bullets from the same
200gr RN mold, just not sized .427"...

 

nothing like shooting real black powder in them,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Sorry no interest in this at all. BP is a PITA

 

winchester model 53 in 44-40, 200gr .428 dia with 10grs unique at about 70 yards standing double lung with complete pass thru. maybe ran 30-35 yards.

 

In the modern 1873, I would use a Hornady 200 gr XTP or the Sierra 210 gr JHP loaded to standard 44-40 pressures. Those bullets will expand at that velocity. Close ranges of 100 yards or less.

 

I,m not in love with BK either, but I do shoot some from time to time to see the fire and smell the smoke.

 

I just tested my 44-40 hunting loads over a chronograph. In my 1894 Marlin With Alliant 2400 was getting muzzle velocities 500 fps faster than 40grn/volume black powder loads with a 200 grn cast bullets out of a 24" barrel. I would be a bit uneasy about try that same load in a toggle link but it worked great in my Marlin and I got very good accuracy as well. You might have better luck with H4198 in a toggle link but I would still proceed with caution. I tried 25 and 26 grains of H4198 ( under a 200 grain cast bullet ) with good results and not as much pressure. 25 grain of H4198 clocked at 1480 fps avg and 26 gains ( compressed) averaged 1516 fps. Both short well but the 25 grain load was a bit more consistent. H4198 might leave a bit of powder residue with lower pressure loads but it is still way easier to clean than black powder.

 

Howdy Billy!

I didn't do too much testing with 2400 but I did try some of Lyman's max loads. Lyman's 49th shows a max load of 20gr (2400) with a Speer .429" 200gr JSP #4425 (discontinued) @ 19,000cup and 1,638fps. My test (.429" bullet-.429" bore) resulted in 1,672fps @ 15,618psi (maybe 18,500cup) which is right in line with expectations and about 3,500cup lower than 22,000cup factory High Velocity loads. I expect that a load that produced 1,800fps with an appropriate diameter bullet/bore should produce right at 22,000cup or about 18,000psi-18,500psi. Should be fine in strong actions but certain, like you advised....not for weak action rifles or any revolvers.

25gr of H4198, in my testing with a 200ht XTP gave me 1,247fps @ 11,640psi (maybe 13,600cup)
26gr of H4198, in my testing, with a Magma cast lead bullet gave me 1,380fps @ 11,707psi (maybe 13,700cup)

Both of those loads should be fine in weak actions with correct bores and are in line with original ballistics for the Winchester 73's


27gr of Reloder 7 with a 200gr XTP gave me 1,400fps @ 12,954psi (maybe 15,000cup) which would be related to and in line, pressure-wise, with 1930's published revolver max pressures of 15,000cup using other powders like Sharpeshooter, Unique and Bullseye. I would certainly consider the thin revolver cylinder walls much weaker than the Winchester 73' type toggle link actions, but not to forget the tight chambers and small bores (.424ish" will create much higher pressures with larger diameter .429"/.430" bullets.

 

This seems so easy for me. If I bought a 44-40, I would treat it as one. If I wanted more performance, I would use a 44 Mag. Just me, but I load my nostalgic cartridges to their form according to specs and everything works out great in accuracy and dead game.

 

I agree, and that includes my 1895G! I know upper level trap door loads are slower in my short barrel, but I shoot at shorter distances, too!