Such loads are well within the limits of your 1895 SS. As you point out, you may not want to shoot many, but your rifle is up to the task.

As far as I know, WWG smooths and tunes the action, not really modifying anything just making sure that everything that is supposed to slide and/or rotate slides and/or rotates easily and precisely.

The long bolt of a Marlin lever gun locks at the rear, giving the action a lot of room to flex and move under a high pressure load. In contrast, a falling block or bolt action rifle locks at the front of the bolt. This produces a much stiffer, stronger action.

According to Hodgdon, "modern" actions can be loaded to 50,000 psi, while Marlins should be kept under 40,000 psi (Trapdoor loads are under 28,000 psi). In a modern gun that 350-gr bullet can sail out of a Ruger #1 at 2300 fps, , and 400-gr bullets at 2100 fps, both in the neighborhoold of 4000 ft-lbs. More advantages can be seen with heavier bullets, modern rifles can easily handle up to 500 gr loads.

In practical terms, the old Trapdoor load of 405 gr bullet at 1330 fps is adequate for most game on the planet, even the big critters. Boosting that speed up to 1600 fps and/or using a heavier bullet, and still well within your Marlin's strength, can even handle the big critters with sharp teeth.

 

According to Hodgdon, "modern" actions can be loaded to 50,000 psi, while Marlins should be kept under 40,000 psi (Trapdoor loads are under 28,000 psi). In a modern gun that 350-gr bullet can sail out of a Ruger #1 at 2300 fps, , and 400-gr bullets at 2100 fps, both in the neighborhoold of 4000 ft-lbs. More advantages can be seen with heavier bullets, modern rifles can easily handle up to 500 gr loads.

In practical terms, the old Trapdoor load of 405 gr bullet at 1330 fps is adequate for most game on the planet, even the big critters. Boosting that speed up to 1600 fps and/or using a heavier bullet, and still well within your Marlin's strength, can even handle the big critters with sharp teeth.

Thanks, DrMike. Trapdoor loads with the 405 are my new favorite, but why the big discrepancy in pressure ratings out there? My Lyman 49th handbook (citing SAAMI) advises not to load the 1895 over 28,000 psi, and that the older Trapdoor actions shouldn't be pushed beyond 18,000 psi. Shouldn't the Hodgdon and Lyman numbers be closer? Just seems a big jump to me. Are the SAAMI levels overly conservative?

This wouldn't be a big deal to me if I didn't have to hunt with lead-free ammo in certain areas of CA, thus having to accommodate the higher pressures when reloading bullets like the Barnes 300gr TSX FN: http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/45-70Marlin1895Web.pdf In this data, they also cite the 1895 as capable of pressures up to and beyond 40,000 psi. How do we know who to trust?

 

A nice Wild West Guns conversion would make a nice conversation piece. Consider this......... reloading for the standard 45-70 provides (in my opinion) enough of a spectrum to reload in. If you convert to the 50 caliber I think your relaoding supplies will be harder to find and not as much load variance.

Shop around on the internet for what bullets and loads are available.

While I really appreciate what WWG does for our loved lever actions......... I think I will stick with the 45-70 (not the 457 magnum or 50 cal).

Yup the old trapdoor 45-70 loads with black powder dropped many animals over the years.

 

It is a strong action and surely can handle what WWG does or ammo such as Garrett or Buffalo Bore but it is not as strong as some folks think. There are folks who come on here from time to time wanting to do conversions that the Marlin action just can't handle so doing your homework is important.

The weak point is generally the front of the receiver between the barrel and the mag tube. A lot of metal gets hogged out to mount those and it doesn't leave a whole left there.

Now, David Clay actually builds his own gun based off a Marlin receiver but beefier and it is capable of handling chamberings such as .500S&W: DRC Lever Action Rifle

And if you think this kind of stuff is interesting, have a read at what another master is capable of doing: What is Possible with the Marlin?

 

I prefer to stay farther below the limit of the action/barrel. With a bolt action, both are a lot thicker and the brass is the limiting factor. The brass and primer also give you warnings and indicators when pressures get that high, but not so much in the allowable pressure range for a Marlin. Additionally, I get all the recoil I paid for in a .45-70 Marlin at lower pressures with the 405. If you want a high velocity rifle, I'd get something in a smaller caliber where you can more easily get velocity with moderate pressures.

 

Eli,

I discovered the DRC website as part of my research prior to purchasing my 45-70. What I did not like was that they only offer their levergun in pistol cartridges (the 454 casull, 500 S&W, and the 475 Linebaugh). Unless I am wrong here, but Natchez lists all three under pistol ammo not rifle ammo. I was then confused because the 45-70 is more powerful than any of the three pistol rounds, at least if using the more powerful non-trapdoor loads (like Garrett and Buffalo Bore). Am I off base here? Because a +P Garret 45-70 out of a Marlin 1895 would outdo any of the pistol rounds fired out of the DRC. But maybe I am missing something here?


I suppose DRC wanted to chamber their lever guns to handle the most powerful pistol rounds with their bolt guns handling rifle rounds. If they had offered the lever in 45-70 I would have considered ordering from them. That said, since they hand build each rifle, I wonder if they would build one in 45-70 for me if I asked them?

 

No I think you got it right Shortgun. A lot of folks want those catridges in a lever gun but the 1894 just can't handle them. Was just trying to make a point in relation to the action strength.

Clay can do a lot of things with a Marlin. We had a member here, Palm Tree I think was his name who had Clay convert an 1894 into a .45ACP and another member who had him turn an 1895CB into I think it was 45-90 or 45-100.

All that said, I can't imagine why anyone needs more than the 45-70 has to offer in a standard 1895.

 

With the heavy bullets you can use in 45-70 high velocity is not really needed for good penetration.

 

Thanks Eli. One thing I failed to think about was how those beefy pistol rounds would perform if shot from an 18 inch (or 26 inch) rifle barrel. If I called them, is there a chance I would hear them say

"why do you want me to make you a lever in 45-70? I am happy to do so, but did you realized that the ballistics of these pistol rounds exceeds those of a Garret or Buffalo Bore shot from your 45-70 because our leverguns have the same length barrel as your Marlin 1895."

I don't need anything more powerful than my LTD III, but I might consider selling it to raise part of the money needed to purchase a hand made Stainless Steel DRC in 45-70. I looked on their website, and could not see which action they are basing their level guns on, either the 1894 or 1895. Maybe I just missed their reference to basing their level gun platform off the 1894 action.

 

I think it's likely based off the 336 receiver but not sure on that.

 

Mike
Welcome to the forum.
I think the Marlin 95 is a pretty strong action, most loading manuals list 3 levels of power.
Be sure you stay at the first or second level the second level is usually listed as Marlin 95 & or Winchester model 86.
Stay away from those listed as modern rifles & or bolt action or Ruger #1 & #3. Those are for really strong actions & would likely ruin a Marlin & maybe the shooter?
I have a lot of fun shooting "trapdoor" level loads in the 95. My most fun load is a "trapdoor" load using a 405gr lead bullet that only chronographs 1088 from my 95, but is so fun & accurate I use it a lot.:top:
Good shooting.

 

I shoot Trapdoors, a Winchester 1886 (circa 1910), and the Marlin 1895 XLR. I also have owned a Brownhing B78 and a Ruger No 1. Yea, I like 45-70.
I use 40,000 cup as a pressure limit for the 1895 Marlin and I have found that 52 grains of RE7 under a 300 JHP do a great job. Just stay off of the shoulder of whitetails as it is hard on meat. The Trapdoors get soft cast only so the pressures here are really low (25 grains of SR4759/Lee 405HB). In the 1886, I select a handload that duplictes factory ballistics with a 400 FP. Memory escapes me now, but it is a charge of IMR 4895

 

Don't undersell that Trapdoor loads. They penetrate deeply and leave a preety good hole. They don't knock 'em over like the 300 JHPs, but the deer don't run too far before falling over. On the plus side, it has been my experience that the recoil of the 45-70 does not spook deer like that of a high velocity round and they don't run off as quickly if you miss the first shot.

 

You ask some probing questions about relative rifle strength and I will try to answer them for you.

I think the loads you refer to for the WWG might be for their 457 WWG cartridge. This cartridge is 0.10 longer than the 45/70 and is longer to prevent it being used in weaker rifles but also being longer means you can increase performance without resorting to higher pressures. The cartridge is loaded to a longer LOA and the rifle is rechambered and is also modified to cycle and feed the longer cartridge. I am not sure whether WWG also alter the action threads on their 457 eg like factory Marlin rifles chambered for 450M, 308M or 338M. Some of the really high powered conversions even blue print the action and use special high strength barrels.

The limiting part of the 1895 Marlin is the fact that the action is really a 30/30 action that has been cleverly re-engineered to accept a cartridge which it was never designed to accommodate. Marlin engineers did a brilliant job of modifying the 336 action to feed and cycle the 45/70 however the problems arise when people try to ridiculously hot rod their rifles. The problem areas are:

Larger cut outs in the side of the action to accommodate the larger case

The amount of metal remaining in the receiver between the bottom of the barrel and the top of the magazine tube

The barrel is undercut to clear the top of the magazine tube.

The Marlins that I have seen come apart in a catastrophic way have all been 1895's in 45/70. Coincidence, well maybe but maybe not either. If you examine pics of these failures, the weaknesses outlined above generally become all too obvious.

Marlin designed the 450M to provide greater safety and factory loads are loaded to the higher pressure levels. These actions, while they may look the same as the ones in 45/70, have a number of differences to provide additional strength in the areas mentioned above.

The modern 1886 designs are still stronger again. Their downside is cost and the fact that you can't easily fit a scope to them. If you want to get the most performance out of a 45/70 then buy a Browning and consider having it altered to accept a longer cartridge. With alterations the 1886 can accept cartridges up to around 2.8" in length. However if you really plan to use these sort of loads you might be better off having the chamber reamed out to 45/90.

This link provides another view on relative action strength and the performance available.

45-70 Leverguns

Having said all that a Marlin 45/70 is safe to use with fairly heavy loads and the performance difference an extra 10k psi makes is not worthwhile IMO. Another factor is that recoil goes up exponentially in light rifles. A 400 gr bullet can be safely pushed along at 1800 fps at around 30k pressures and this is plenty for most game. In fact the biggest factor in game taking ability is not the power but the bullet itself. With the right bullet even this performance can take very large game. Quite a few people here use either Woodleigh 400 gr FN or their Hydrostatic solids loaded to this level and it is easily capable of taking out our buffalo in NT.

 

JFE

Thanks for that link to the levergun article

 

Here's an interesting bit on velocity vs. penetration according to this fellow.

Garrett Cartridges Inc.

If his analysis is correct, then 45-70 pressures in an 1895 should not be an issue. We don't need to push 'em very fast.

 

Thank you all for your replies and, in particular, for the very interesting links.

As I said in my first post, I have no intention of using anything approaching maximum loads since the recoil on my downloaded handloads is quite enough for me. However the available ballistics of the 45-70 remains an interesting topic for me.

Thanks again for your contributions, all of which I found interesting and informative. This really is the best place to ask questions!

Regards
Mike

 

Hi Eli. The reason I looked at DRC is because the 45-70 is illegal to hunt with in Indiana, while any of the pistol rounds listed are legal.
Ended up getting a 1894 44 Mag. With Ranch Dog 265 gr boolits as cast by Carolina Cast launched at 1550 f/s, it does a great job on deer.

Thanks, Packard

 

Hello packard

What aspect of the 45-70 makes it illegal to hunt with in Indiana?

Regards
Mike

 

Higher velocity may affect accuracy, too. I loaded some test rounds of 300gr bullets at 1800fps, 2000fps, and 2200fps. Besides being a lot more comfortable to shoot, the 1800fps loads produced the smallest groups.
Just my $.02

 

I have a 50 alaskan 1895. The difference in performance is a result of the larger frontal area on the diameter of the bullet -- .510 vs .458 .... .52 difference. As far as componets, you can shoot 300 grains to 535 grains in jacketed (there are 600 grainers but you can not get them going fast enough to expand). In cast 300 to 600 grains.
You really can not drive it very much faster than a 45/70 in a marlin. The 1886 allows a bit better velocity because of the design.

 

SAAMI lists only that .45-70 loads be limited to 28,000 psi maximum average pressure (MAP), which should be safe in any rifle in good operating condition, the lowest common denominator being the Trapdoor Springfield. Others have expanded on this based on the design characteristics certain rifles (Marlins and the Ruger #1, to name two). When you also recall that SAAMI are voluntary guidelines, not standards, then you can start to appreciate the reasons behind the wide variation in pressure ratings and advice.

As for who to trust... trust everyone who tells you everything... that you can verify. If you hear of someone telling you that a Marlin 1895 can hold back 50,000 psi, be very leery because it goes against years of experience and safe practice. Let someone else load that in their 1895 and shoot 1000 rounds and write a couple of articles about it before loading it in yours.

Personally, I never use a reloading recipe that I can't verify from at least two sources I trust, and I work up to that load slowly from below. I usually have no interest in pushing any envelopes to squeeze the last bit of performance from a round, least of all a 100-year old round that was never to be anything other than low-pressure (by "modern" standards). I'll take my .45-70 loads heavy and slow, and marvel at how smart those old guys were every time they completely bowl over what I hit.

 

Personally, I never use a reloading recipe that I can't verify from at least two sources I trust, and I work up to that load slowly from below. I usually have no interest in pushing any envelopes to squeeze the last bit of performance from a round, least of all a 100-year old round that was never to be anything other than low-pressure (by "modern" standards). I'll take my .45-70 loads heavy and slow, and marvel at how smart those old guys were every time they completely bowl over what I hit.

Thanks, that's really helpful. When you say you work up to loads you can trust, will you start that ramp up from below what may be listed as the "minimum" charge? Or do you start from the minimum charge and work up from there? Is it safe to drop below minimum suggested charges?

 

Not to suggest that WWG isn't a good idea to modify a Marlin45/70, but if you have a local gunsmith you like they could probably slick up the action. But it you want a major redo WWG might be better. I got a used XLR and wanted a shorter barrel, so I had my regular gunsmith shorten the barrel to 20" and slick up the action. I don't need the large lever loop, because I don't wear glove very often. Dave

 

Thanks, DrMike. In the case of the Barnes 300gr bullet, the powder suggested is AA1680--which I believe to be a pretty quick burning powder. I'll verify it with another source, but I like the idea of dropping 5% below the minimum starting out. I'm with ya on accuracy and comfort over staggering velocities. I appreciate your thoughts.