Brian, he did say "in any case of capacity greater than the 35 Remington."

I also have the article you mentioned in my collection of references.

Emphasis on "greater than."

I'm afraid that's a bit hot for best cast bullet accuracy in the .35, and fast powders must be loaded to lower levels using either plainbase or gaschecked lead bullets for best accuracy in the .35 Remington.

Pass on the full 13 grains.

Incidentally, with lighter cast bullets in the .30's, such as the Lee Soupcan (C113F) or the RCBS 130 grain or thereabouts, considerably better accuracy is obtained in the nine grain range for about 15-1600 fps in the .30-06 and .308. Accuracy is also better with the heavier bullets as well - give it a try. The velocity may not meet your standards at 12-300 fps with the 150-180 grain bullets, but accuracy is improved here as well assuming adequate rifling pitch to stabilize.

At some point pressures with fast powders and the quick kick they give cast bullets cause accuracy to fall off. I don't suggest this load with plainbase bullets (even nine grains) as it responds better with gascheck bullets. Drop the load to seven grains or less in any case of .308 size or larger using plainbase bullets and Red Dot.

Accuracy will be much better with plainbase using the even further reduced charge.

I have never shot a load using 13 grains of Red Dot in various calibers that didn't shoot somewhat better when the charge was reduced. With due respect to Mr. Harris, who is one of my favorite writers and quite knowledgeable.

He settled on the 13 grain range as universally suitable, but not necessarily optimum in accuracy for all, which is an important distinction to make. 13 Red Dot and the 405 Lee FN make an excellent load in the .45-70 at about 1150 fps, for instance, but is not recommended for old Trapdoor Springfields.

So, for even better accuracy with cast bullets, drop that charge of Red Dot!

Jacketed bullets are less of a problem with this 13 grain load.

However, it is still not a jacketed bullet load at 13 grains in the .35 Remington. Drop the charge. Doing so still stays within Ed's idea for a economical powder choice, and is more proper as to pressures.

 

Darn it! I guess I remembered it incorrectly. It would be you who caught the error. ;D ;D ;D

But, from my experience with my H & R Trapdoor Officer's Model replica, the load, using 405 grain jacketed Remington is safe in that rifle. Accurate too. I get 200-yard groups in the 2.5-in range with the tang sight. Perhaps 13 grains of Red Dot would not be safe in an original Trapdoor.

I was going to try 13 grains of Red Dot with 158 grain cast bullets in my .35 Rem. How much lighter would you recommend I go?

 

My Lyman cast bullet book suggests 8.5gr of Red Dot for 1390 fps, to 11.0 gr for 1615fps. with the 150 plain base round nose cast bullet. My experience would suggest less than the recommended starting charge through that amount for accuracy in the .35 Remington. I would start with 7.0 grains perhaps. I've used as little as 4.5 grains of Red Dot with a 150 gr. plain base, but don't know what the velocity was. My best accuracy with Unique, and plain base bullets in that weight range is 8.0 grains which is probably around 11-1200 fps.

 

I'd be reprising most of a past post a few pages back on cast bullet loads in the .35 Remington, but the short version is to try around 6 grains to start and go up or down from there as accuracy allows.

Anything above 1200 fps will probably see accuracy go south with Red Dot.

Try reading this thread for a few more details:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,34323.0.html

If the bullet is a plainbase, you're going to be nowhere near 13 grains when trying to produce best accuracy.

 

+1 on 35 Remington's suggestion. He has a lot more chronograph data than I do, but I agree that the best accuracy will come under 1200 fps with plainbase. On the other hand I've had very good results with as much as 11.0 grains of Unique under the 358156 GC bullet in the 35 Rem.

 

The deal with the Red Dot load of 13 grains in the Trapdoor, IMO, is with the various bullets.

Seat a bullet deeper in the .45-70 using fast powders and it starts to behave like an overgrown 45 ACP - pressures go up noticeably as case volume is taken up.

The Lee 405 hollowbase intended for the 45-70 is longer and seats deeply in the case. Velocities/pressures go up noticeably with the deeper seated bullet.

I would guess the load you are shooting would be fine with a more compact bullet taking up less powder space, which is more common, and I do not doubt you when you say it works for you. The loads I have shot in my Microgroove 45-70 using 13.0 Red Dot have been great fun to shoot, and average about 1120 fps while seeming mild, just as you say. I am absolutely amazed at how a heavy bullet at that speed can penetrate as it does.

The Lee bullet jacks that up to about 1250 with a notable increase in pressure, I am certain.

 

Muchas gracias, amigos. I'll give your suggestions a try once my .35 Rem dies arrive. Lots of good advice on this forum, by gum!!! ;D ;D

 

I'm wondering if that article has been printed in more than one DBI book, I think I saw something identical (or pretty close) in an old Gun Digest annual many years ago, it was called, "The Load." I'm also a big fan of Mr. Harris!

If you don't have Red Dot handy, you can always try Unique, Herco, or any powder in the same range. I have used a lot of Unique for my 35 Remington loads, I shoot 158 JHP's and JSP's over 9.2 grains, but haven't had a chance to chronograph the load yet. I'd guess the velocity at around 1400 fps, and my rifle prefers the Remington bullets to all others. Accuracy is excellent.

PJ

 

I like the Red Dot loads because, when I was a shotshell loader, I bought a large keg of the stuff, and this is one fine way of using it up. ;D

 

In my "The Load" I use light wgt bullets in most any cal. I got this from a WW handout loading manual. The list 18.5gns of W296 in a 30-30 back then it was 18gns of W296 for 110gn in a 30-30. I have used 18gns in a 30-30 with 110 and 125. 18gns in a .243 with 87gn spire pts. H110 a ballistic twin can be used. I have recently loaded some 110gnrs in my 30-30 with 18gns of 2400. Incredible is the .243 and the 87gn bullet with 18gns of W296 it would cut holes at 200yds!! Red Dot does sound interesting but I don't use that powder. Any powder that you can increase it's versatility is a good thing to share.

Of all I've used I do believe the 2400 is the most versatile, I have used it in 30-30, 32special, .35Rem, 38-55. I did buy it for my .357 and .44 mag

 

At one time, there was only one powder, and that was black powder, and except for the size of the granules it could be loaded in everything. The Red Dot load was widely publicized at one time, and I suppose it was used by some, availability and price were factors IMO, and the scarcity of good loading data was an issue. Today, it's a different story, I've used "Trail Boss" and IMO it's what should be used for those reduced or plinker or learning loads. Interestingly, Trail Boss has a burning rate in the Red Dot zone with even more bulk, it's not cheap, but nothing about shooting is cheap anymore.

 

I have used a lot of 7.5 grain loads in the 38-55 and .35 Remington with excellent results. These are mild loads with plain base lead bullets (250 and 200 grain) and are accurate enough for chicken and pig loads in cowboy rifle silhouette. I like cheap and good when I can get it. The 38-55 load will knock down 200 rams most of the time.

 

Will this 13 grains of Red Dot work in the mighty 444 with a hardcast 240 gr SWC?
Thank you,
Larry

 

this is a great post full of great info thanks to everyone who contributed to it

 

Brian, glad to see you posting again. WE MISSED YOU!