New one on me, but in the last month I have seen reports or heard folks talk about using pistol primers in the 45-70, both with BP and that nasty Smokyless stuff. What's up with that? :?
Grizzly Adams
I would think a .44 mag generates pressures equal to and exceeding anything you should load for a 45-70. So sure why not. Worse case scenario blown primer, at that it's better luck next time. No harm, no foul.
That being said, I quit using pistol primers unless they are given to me. That includes my .357mag (small rifle primers) less confusion. Kinda like using RX7 for most straight walled rifle cases for game loads and Unique for light cast. Works for me.
That being said, I quit using pistol primers unless they are given to me. That includes my .357mag (small rifle primers) less confusion. Kinda like using RX7 for most straight walled rifle cases for game loads and Unique for light cast. Works for me.
And I'd imagine they make them different for a reason. :wink:
I doubt theres a saftey concern unless a person went the other way round & put large rifle primers in a pistol case & they protruded a bit.
I'd wonder about inconsistant ignition, misfires or hang fires if the pin couldn't reach the shorter primers well enough.
All that aside I saw the responses on Leverguns & it seems folks are doing it both ways sucessfully.
Personally, I'm pretty new to the whole reloading thing, I'll play by the rules for now. :wink:
I doubt theres a saftey concern unless a person went the other way round & put large rifle primers in a pistol case & they protruded a bit.
I'd wonder about inconsistant ignition, misfires or hang fires if the pin couldn't reach the shorter primers well enough.
All that aside I saw the responses on Leverguns & it seems folks are doing it both ways sucessfully.
Personally, I'm pretty new to the whole reloading thing, I'll play by the rules for now. :wink:
If you want to SEE why there is a difference between Rifle and Pistol primers, do yourself a little experiment as follows:
Start with clean and decapped brass of any common Revolver/Rifle caliber, i.e. .45 Colt, .357Mag, .44Mag, etc.
Prime a couple of the brass with the Pistol primer, and use a colored pen on the case head to mark it.
Now, prime a couple of the brass with the Rifle primer, and leave them plain.
DO NOT put anything else in the cases.
Load the cases into a revolver, put on your ear and eye protection, and take it into a dark bathroom (or if you live close to an area where you can shoot, do this at night). Hold the revolver pointed into the shower stall, making sure there is NOTHING flammable in the stall, and fire them.
Observe the difference. 8)
Start with clean and decapped brass of any common Revolver/Rifle caliber, i.e. .45 Colt, .357Mag, .44Mag, etc.
Prime a couple of the brass with the Pistol primer, and use a colored pen on the case head to mark it.
Now, prime a couple of the brass with the Rifle primer, and leave them plain.
DO NOT put anything else in the cases.
Load the cases into a revolver, put on your ear and eye protection, and take it into a dark bathroom (or if you live close to an area where you can shoot, do this at night). Hold the revolver pointed into the shower stall, making sure there is NOTHING flammable in the stall, and fire them.
Observe the difference. 8)
A recent article on chain fires stipulated one of the inciting factors is using pistol primers. They are much easier to ignite! I'm a recent user and abuser, but this made me sit up and take notice. There is a difference for a reason.
Why does the 454 Casull need(recommended) to use small rifle primers rather than Mag pistol primers? :lol:
Which pistol uses up to 65 grains of powder like the 45-70 to be ignited?
Hummmmmmmm
Jayco
Which pistol uses up to 65 grains of powder like the 45-70 to be ignited?
Hummmmmmmm
Jayco
How does that have any bearing on NOT using pistol primers in the tubular magazine rifle? That was the point of the article Dr. A was mentioning.
Rifle primers have harder cups and emit a longer spark. The harder cup is to prevent pressure blowback through the primer, as in pierced primers, that would allow flames/gases to blow back (due to rifle cartridge pressures being generally higher than pistol cartridge pressures) into the firing pin and bolt face. The longer spark is to promote uniform ignition throughout the length of the powder charge in a rifle case. The 454 Casull is a long case, similar to a rifle case without a taper, and would need a long spark running through the powder charge to ensure even ignition of the powder, to optimize combustion before over pressuring the case and chamber.
It's similar to the principle of different spark plugs for different engines, based on the physics of the combustion cycle that is desired. It is very precisely engineered to achieve the optimum performance. That doesn't mean you can't use a different plug than it was engineered for. It just means that doing so will alter the intended combustion cycle. :roll:
The first principle I was taught in reloading (and all my chemistry classes in school) was that altering the recipe can bring about unintended outcomes, some of which can be dangerous and or deadly.
Some people just prefer to learn the hard way due to their lack of ability to assimilate data, often with tragic results. Fortunately, there is a LONG history of firearms use, and an incredible amount of research and design testing, constantly being done in the firearms industry. This affords us shooters a constant stream of improved quality and shooting enjoyment, with a whole lot less tragedy for those who can follow directions. :wink:
Rifle primers have harder cups and emit a longer spark. The harder cup is to prevent pressure blowback through the primer, as in pierced primers, that would allow flames/gases to blow back (due to rifle cartridge pressures being generally higher than pistol cartridge pressures) into the firing pin and bolt face. The longer spark is to promote uniform ignition throughout the length of the powder charge in a rifle case. The 454 Casull is a long case, similar to a rifle case without a taper, and would need a long spark running through the powder charge to ensure even ignition of the powder, to optimize combustion before over pressuring the case and chamber.
It's similar to the principle of different spark plugs for different engines, based on the physics of the combustion cycle that is desired. It is very precisely engineered to achieve the optimum performance. That doesn't mean you can't use a different plug than it was engineered for. It just means that doing so will alter the intended combustion cycle. :roll:
The first principle I was taught in reloading (and all my chemistry classes in school) was that altering the recipe can bring about unintended outcomes, some of which can be dangerous and or deadly.
Some people just prefer to learn the hard way due to their lack of ability to assimilate data, often with tragic results. Fortunately, there is a LONG history of firearms use, and an incredible amount of research and design testing, constantly being done in the firearms industry. This affords us shooters a constant stream of improved quality and shooting enjoyment, with a whole lot less tragedy for those who can follow directions. :wink:
I can't imagine the economy would be much for the switch. Maybe would be higher if something goes wrong. This probably would or could include medical help.
fknipfer
fknipfer
And as iffy as some folks seem to feel about certain bullet nose shapes in the 45-70 and the possibility of chain fires and tube explosions, I can't imagine why anyone would want to use a thinner cupped pistol primer which can only increase the likelihood. I am not one who harbors a great concern over the likelihood of having a mag tube explosion with properly loaded ammo. However, I surely wouldn't tempt fate with thinner primers which can only increase the likelyhood. If a "softer" flame is desired, that effect can surely be acheived simply by experimenting with the rather large assortment of primers already available for the large rifle.
I use the same loads in my 44 mag Super Blackhawk & my 1894SS. I load 265gr. Hornady JFP`s in front of 20gr 2400 & Rem large pistol primers.
Should I load for the 1894SS using rifle primers? I have never had a problem, however I don`t want to be doing anything unsafe. 444 :?: :?: :?: :?:
Should I load for the 1894SS using rifle primers? I have never had a problem, however I don`t want to be doing anything unsafe. 444 :?: :?: :?: :?:
I'm curious about this too. Glad someone brought it up. My concerns would be I think more of it just dont fit right than because of relitive sensativity.444nut said:
Even pressure issues I doubt come into play with the guns we are discussing.
We're not talking 60,000 psi loads. I could be wrong but thought some mag pistol cartriges produced close to 50,000, I aint going there with a 45/70, or any other calibre in a Marlin.
BTW 444nut,
You cant use rifle primers in your 44mag, they wont seat past flush. Unless of course you cut the primer pocket deeper. I wouldn't tho.
An example of a pistol cartridge in the Henry leveraction.
Jayco
The smaller primer pockets of the pistol brass combined with the thicker cup of a rifle primer,doesn't sound to good.
Jayco
I don't worry about that either. When I shoot heavy (320 grain) loads in a light revolver caliber carbine, I am always using a magnum primer. Mag primers may be as soft as standards, but they are at least as tough and sometimes tougher than the standards. Unlike the bigger rifles for which one can readily find tube mag suitable cast RN bullets, heavy bullets for large bore revolver cartridges are virtually all flat meplatted bullets. Further, even in a light carbine, its pretty tough to confuse the recoil of a heavy revolver load compared to a rifle shooting a bullet 33% heavier at 20% more speed.444nut said:
I'm sure one can get by with interchanging primer types in certain applications without having trouble. To do so though is asking for it for what reason? I have been known to do it when I wanted some ammo to use right away for shooting and could not easily get the right primers and only for certain specific loads. I would never do it with ammo that might not all be used right away and I wouldn't use it for hunting ammo.
Okay, let me get this straight, today I've learned that pistol cases have a shallow primer pocket and a rifle primer will stick out.
Sorry, I load my .357 mag with small rifle CCI 400 primers they don't stick out in fact they are below the casehead surface. I have, starline, federal, win, rem they all work.
A soft pistol primer is unsafe in a tube magazine.
Sorry again, I loaded up 1000 .357s with Rem small pistol because my brother gave them to me(unplated and softer yet) Fed em all through a marlin .357 tube magazine, they all went bang one at a time.
I would seriously mic the depth of them pistol cases and compare to a rifle case before seating.
Willing to bet there is a sammi spec for primer pockets and primers so we wont do something wrong when reloading by accident.
If I had some large or small pistol primers you can bet I would not hesitate in using them safely of course in a rifle case or vice versa. Cast plinker or light loads would be one case, where a responsible reloader could do it. Best bet from there would be load one and let er bang, no problems go back and load the rest.
Imagine if you will a load for a 45-70 trapdoor using safe listed loads.
Now imagine a .44 mag with a top load of say H110.
Do believe you could use large pistol primers in either.
Large and small mag pistol primers if unplated will be softer and more prone to blow than the plated.
Sorry, I load my .357 mag with small rifle CCI 400 primers they don't stick out in fact they are below the casehead surface. I have, starline, federal, win, rem they all work.
A soft pistol primer is unsafe in a tube magazine.
Sorry again, I loaded up 1000 .357s with Rem small pistol because my brother gave them to me(unplated and softer yet) Fed em all through a marlin .357 tube magazine, they all went bang one at a time.
I would seriously mic the depth of them pistol cases and compare to a rifle case before seating.
Willing to bet there is a sammi spec for primer pockets and primers so we wont do something wrong when reloading by accident.
If I had some large or small pistol primers you can bet I would not hesitate in using them safely of course in a rifle case or vice versa. Cast plinker or light loads would be one case, where a responsible reloader could do it. Best bet from there would be load one and let er bang, no problems go back and load the rest.
Imagine if you will a load for a 45-70 trapdoor using safe listed loads.
Now imagine a .44 mag with a top load of say H110.
Do believe you could use large pistol primers in either.
Large and small mag pistol primers if unplated will be softer and more prone to blow than the plated.
Swany,
Its only large rifle primers that are taller than large pistol primers.
Small pistol & rifle are the same & I think theyre the same as large pistol primers.
I only know because I remember when I got my primer pocket uniformer I had to adjust between large rifle cases & pistol cases but not small primer cases.
Seat a large rifle primer in a 44 mag case, I bet it sticks out. :wink:
Its only large rifle primers that are taller than large pistol primers.
Small pistol & rifle are the same & I think theyre the same as large pistol primers.
I only know because I remember when I got my primer pocket uniformer I had to adjust between large rifle cases & pistol cases but not small primer cases.
Seat a large rifle primer in a 44 mag case, I bet it sticks out. :wink:
A 357 is a pistol cartridge so there should be no problem. Recoil is nothing anyway which is what it will take to set off a primer. Now if you were shooting the little Bee in a rifle using pistol primers, that would be a "wrong" combination (pistol primer in a rifle cartridge), but I sure wouldn't lose sleep over something like that since recoil is nil.swany said:
That isn't a convincing or comfortable argument to me. You can still push a 405 grain bullet to 1700 fps at safe Trapdoor/SAAMI pressures. I don't care what anyone theorizes, that load does recoil more than a 44 Mag 300 grain max load moving the same speed - if it even gets there. Now if you were talking similar bullet weights and speeds, sure. But why? If you don't shoot them all up right away and then mix some (inadvertantly presumably) with a few leftover "steamroller" loads, what will you get?swany said:
As for primers, I don't actually know if they're softer, but Federal (plated) primers can be as or more sensitive than Winchesters (unplated). Plated CCIs seem harder, but I don't think that is simply because of the thin coating of nickel.
45-70 trapdoor load 3031 300gn bullet rifle primer 24,900 cup
44 mag pistol W296 300gn bullet pistol primer 38,000 cup
The last figure is what blows primers, if too high. Is a pistol primer safe in the 45-70 load?
44 mag pistol W296 300gn bullet pistol primer 38,000 cup
The last figure is what blows primers, if too high. Is a pistol primer safe in the 45-70 load?
Breeching a primer is a concern far secondary to the recoil induced mess one might incurr should one be set off by the recoil of one behind it in the magazine. I don't have great concerns about tube magazine explosions, but thinner primers and heavy recoil certainly would increase the flirtation with trouble in my view.
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