Did Marlin ever have a twist rate other than 1:38" in .44 mag in an 1894 rifle?
Shuz
I think it depends upon which model 1894 you have.
Marlin Model 1894 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
shows the 1894S to have 1:20 twist, where the 1894 & 1894SS have the 1:38 twist.
The Marlin web site still lists 1:38 for the 1894 .44 magnum rifles.
Marlin Model 1894
Marlin Model 1894 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
shows the 1894S to have 1:20 twist, where the 1894 & 1894SS have the 1:38 twist.
The Marlin web site still lists 1:38 for the 1894 .44 magnum rifles.
Marlin Model 1894
Before Marlin closed, I was asked to do a test on 44Mag barrels to see if a faster twist (1:20") would perform better than 1:38"..............We had had a number of requests from the field for a 1:20" 44Mag..........
I had 12 barrels made with 1:20" rifling, and assembled into rifles.........
We then chose 6 from the 12, and shot them at 100 yards in controlled conditions against 6 selected 1:38" guns, using both jacketed and commercially cast lead ammo..........
As I recall, (I no longer have the data).............The Jacketed bullets shot the about same in both twists..That is to say, it was difficult to conclusively say the faster twist was beneficial to accuracy............
The cast bullets also shot pretty much the same...........As the cast bullets were commerciall loaded, and not sized to a particular barrel, we selected the two rifles in each twist rate that performed the best with cast ammo, and shot them with jacketed ammo............The results were so close that Marlin R&D decided to continue with the 1:38" twist in 44Mag rifles..............
I suspect, If someone has a 1:20" 44Mag barrel on their rifle, that may be one of the Original test rifles...........Those test rifle would be either late 2007, 2008 or possibley 2009 rifles..I can't recall exactly when the test was requested and the rifles were built. There was a lot going on at Marlin, then......
I recall CalvinMD wanted one of those rifles, and at the time, Marlin would not allow them to be sold, as they were non-standard rifles.
I lost track of those 12 rifles, but I'm about 100% sure they were finally sold by remington, as Marlin came closer to closing the North Haven doors.......
To summarize, I wouldn't care if my 44Mag rifle was 1:20 or 1:38.................
Tom
I had 12 barrels made with 1:20" rifling, and assembled into rifles.........
We then chose 6 from the 12, and shot them at 100 yards in controlled conditions against 6 selected 1:38" guns, using both jacketed and commercially cast lead ammo..........
As I recall, (I no longer have the data).............The Jacketed bullets shot the about same in both twists..That is to say, it was difficult to conclusively say the faster twist was beneficial to accuracy............
The cast bullets also shot pretty much the same...........As the cast bullets were commerciall loaded, and not sized to a particular barrel, we selected the two rifles in each twist rate that performed the best with cast ammo, and shot them with jacketed ammo............The results were so close that Marlin R&D decided to continue with the 1:38" twist in 44Mag rifles..............
I suspect, If someone has a 1:20" 44Mag barrel on their rifle, that may be one of the Original test rifles...........Those test rifle would be either late 2007, 2008 or possibley 2009 rifles..I can't recall exactly when the test was requested and the rifles were built. There was a lot going on at Marlin, then......
I recall CalvinMD wanted one of those rifles, and at the time, Marlin would not allow them to be sold, as they were non-standard rifles.
I lost track of those 12 rifles, but I'm about 100% sure they were finally sold by remington, as Marlin came closer to closing the North Haven doors.......
To summarize, I wouldn't care if my 44Mag rifle was 1:20 or 1:38.................
Tom
Thanks Tom, Your input of information is valuable and always worth saving for us collectors.
Jack
Jack
According to Wikipedia the Marlin 1894S has a 1:20 twist.
It also has microgroove instead of Ballard rifling.
It's listed in the chart at the bottom of the article.
Marlin Model 1894 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It also has microgroove instead of Ballard rifling.
It's listed in the chart at the bottom of the article.
Marlin Model 1894 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are some online articles on how to do it.
It's how they calculate the actual twist that still
confuses me.
It's how they calculate the actual twist that still
confuses me.
Sinclair’s Simple Twist Rate Measurement Method
If are unsure of the twist rate of the barrel, you can measure it yourself in a couple of minutes. You need a good cleaning rod with a rotating handle and a jag with a fairly tight fitting patch. Utilize a rod guide if you are accessing the barrel through the breech or a muzzle guide if you are going to come in from the muzzle end. Make sure the rod rotates freely in the handle under load. Start the patch into the barrel for a few inches and then stop. Put a piece of tape at the back of the rod by the handle (like a flag) or mark the rod in some way. Measure how much of the rod is still protruding from the rod guide. You can either measure from the rod guide or muzzle guide back to the flag or to a spot on the handle. Next, continue to push the rod in until the mark or tape flag has made one complete revolution. Re-measure the amount of rod that is left sticking out of the barrel. Use the same reference marks as you did on the first measurement. Next, subtract this measurement from the first measurement. This number is the twist rate. For example, if the rod has 24 inches remaining at the start and 16 inches remain after making one revolution, you have 8 inches of travel, thus a 1:8 twist barrel.
If are unsure of the twist rate of the barrel, you can measure it yourself in a couple of minutes. You need a good cleaning rod with a rotating handle and a jag with a fairly tight fitting patch. Utilize a rod guide if you are accessing the barrel through the breech or a muzzle guide if you are going to come in from the muzzle end. Make sure the rod rotates freely in the handle under load. Start the patch into the barrel for a few inches and then stop. Put a piece of tape at the back of the rod by the handle (like a flag) or mark the rod in some way. Measure how much of the rod is still protruding from the rod guide. You can either measure from the rod guide or muzzle guide back to the flag or to a spot on the handle. Next, continue to push the rod in until the mark or tape flag has made one complete revolution. Re-measure the amount of rod that is left sticking out of the barrel. Use the same reference marks as you did on the first measurement. Next, subtract this measurement from the first measurement. This number is the twist rate. For example, if the rod has 24 inches remaining at the start and 16 inches remain after making one revolution, you have 8 inches of travel, thus a 1:8 twist barrel.
I will just assume that Wikipedia is correct about the 1:20 rate since you cannot disprove that.
The .44 Mag is 1 X 38 the Marlin in .444 Marlin Was changed from a 1 X 38 to a 1 X 20 as said in the early 2000's and should be so today.
If Remington Today would make there Marlin .44 Mag Rifles with a 1 X 20 twist and tighten up the bore size and also have good production Quality going out the door I would seriously look into the purchase of one.
If Remington Today would make there Marlin .44 Mag Rifles with a 1 X 20 twist and tighten up the bore size and also have good production Quality going out the door I would seriously look into the purchase of one.
I've had the blasted Flu for a week now and dealing with snarky people isn't what
I'm up for right now.
I'm not sure if Wikipedia is right. But when I get answers that antagonize
rather than help, it's easier to assume wiki is right than deal with attitude.
I'm up for right now.
I'm not sure if Wikipedia is right. But when I get answers that antagonize
rather than help, it's easier to assume wiki is right than deal with attitude.
All standard model 1894 Marlin 44 magnum factory barrrels have a 1/38 twist rate. The 0nly thing changed was the rifling from microgroove to ballard. The bore size seems to have tightened up with the switch to Ballard. But all standard factory Marlin 44 magnum barrels are 1/38 twist no matter what the rifling. This question is asked every few weeks here. The answer never changes. You can read it in the article written by Glen Fryxell on Marlin barrels and Tomray worked at the factory.
I'm not dealing with Wikipedia,that's not the issue here.I'm trying to verify the truthfulness of a statement you made in this Forum. My generation doesn't believe everything we see online,we're into empirical evidence. Internet BS is just more BS whether it comes from Wikipedia or an individual. Your time to step up and prove us all wrong is here. When you're over the Flu,do the simple twist test and post your results. Thanks.
Rob
Rob
As said the Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum has a Twist Rate of 1 by 38 PERIOD. That means all of them EXCEPT for 12 Marlin 1894's in .44 Magnum that May or May Not Have made it into the Public's hands. And again NOBODY will know for sure what YOU have except for a pretty good idea that it Is a 1 by 38 twist Except for the 12 That throws a wrench into those numbers of which again May or May Not have made it into the Public's hands. And again the only way to know for Sure is to Measure the Twist Rate on Your Own Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag to see if you are one of the Lucky or Unlucky 12 Depending on how You look at it.
According to my measurements mine is in fact a 1:38 twist.
Someone should change the Wikipedia article since it obviously
is wrong.
As far as I know the 1894S has the crossbolt safety and possibly the microgroove rifling and
that's it.
As far as whether or not you believe I have the flu. I'd comment on that but I'd get banned.
Someone should change the Wikipedia article since it obviously
is wrong.
As far as I know the 1894S has the crossbolt safety and possibly the microgroove rifling and
that's it.
As far as whether or not you believe I have the flu. I'd comment on that but I'd get banned.
To say the 1-38 twist is fine and nothing wrong is just asnine, in all my years of messing with Marlins the 1894 44Mag was the hardest to get any kind of accuracy from. Regardless of which bullets I tested, now if I wasn't a 444 Junkie I may believe the conclusions from those tests by Marlin, but I just don't buy into it. The older 444's has the 1-38 twist, the 444 has the ability to use velocity to overcome the slow twist with many bullets, and it needs every bit of that velocity with many bullets. Now the 44Mag falls very short in the needed velocity to get many bullets to do right. If Marlin only tested the 44Mag with 240gr bullets, then shame on them, then they do not know the shooting public there selling to! Marlin changed twist rate in the 444 to 1-20, so WHY did they do this, after all the 1-38 was good enough for a 44Mag, and the 444 shoots the same factory weight bullets!
Starrbow,
I remember that discussion.
Marlin decided to test the 44Mag only with the standard 240 Gr bullet, because R&D felt the powder capacity of the 44Mag case was not large enough to propel "Heavy for caliber" (300Gr) bullets at speeds the public would accept.
They decided to stay with the SAAMI spec'd 240 Gr bullet 44Mag bullet to keep the test data cleaner and easier to work with.
In the case of the 444, The twist was changed to gain more control over the 265 gr. and 300Gr bullets that shooters wanted to use.
As you recall, the 444 gained some bad press when it was stated the only bullet available was the 240 gr Pistol bullet...........
When the 444 was firsrt released in the early 70's, the 240 Bullet did not perform well at elevated speeds. But it was not the same bullet we buy today.
Changes have been made to allow the bullet to stand up to higher velocities, but its hard to convince the public of that fact, after they 've read the gun rags, or witnessed a frangible failure, themselves.
I am recalling this to the best of my memory........All these 444 changes goes back about 15 years, now.............and I agree, the 444 is probably a better rifle for the heavier bullets if it has the newer 1:20 twist.......but I can find NO difference in mine when using 240's and 265's.****
**** I should clarify, that I've had the opportuntiy to shoot my rifle with the original 1:38 MG barrel , and then I had it rebarrelled using the newer 1:20 Ballard cut barrel, when I built a special new barrel for use with a full length Mag tube. I find no difference in accracy at 100 and 200 yards using 240 Gr and 265 Gr jacketed bullets.
Tom
I remember that discussion.
Marlin decided to test the 44Mag only with the standard 240 Gr bullet, because R&D felt the powder capacity of the 44Mag case was not large enough to propel "Heavy for caliber" (300Gr) bullets at speeds the public would accept.
They decided to stay with the SAAMI spec'd 240 Gr bullet 44Mag bullet to keep the test data cleaner and easier to work with.
In the case of the 444, The twist was changed to gain more control over the 265 gr. and 300Gr bullets that shooters wanted to use.
As you recall, the 444 gained some bad press when it was stated the only bullet available was the 240 gr Pistol bullet...........
When the 444 was firsrt released in the early 70's, the 240 Bullet did not perform well at elevated speeds. But it was not the same bullet we buy today.
Changes have been made to allow the bullet to stand up to higher velocities, but its hard to convince the public of that fact, after they 've read the gun rags, or witnessed a frangible failure, themselves.
I am recalling this to the best of my memory........All these 444 changes goes back about 15 years, now.............and I agree, the 444 is probably a better rifle for the heavier bullets if it has the newer 1:20 twist.......but I can find NO difference in mine when using 240's and 265's.****
**** I should clarify, that I've had the opportuntiy to shoot my rifle with the original 1:38 MG barrel , and then I had it rebarrelled using the newer 1:20 Ballard cut barrel, when I built a special new barrel for use with a full length Mag tube. I find no difference in accracy at 100 and 200 yards using 240 Gr and 265 Gr jacketed bullets.
Tom
I can't be sure but I think Tomray knows what he's talking about, at least he has performed direct testing on the subject. That's more than I can say I have done personally at least.
I'm purely speculating here but I think the reason the 444 benefits from a faster twist (the reason Marlin switched to that with the 444) is that it is able to propel a heavy bullet much faster than a 44 magnum, you have to consider the speed of a bullet when talking about twist, not just how heavy or long the bullet is.
There comes a point where more twist slows down the bullet to a point where the twist becomes a detriment to accuracy and potential rather than beneficial.
I think this is the case with the 44 magnum, yes a faster twist might help the 44 mag with extremely heavy bullets for the calibers over 300 grains but it might actually reduce accuracy with regular 240 grain factory ammo (could be one of the reasons the 77/44 with the faster twist has had a lot of problems with accuracy, at least from what I have read).
So if you have a rifle company making 44 magnum rifles do you go with the regular spec twist that is perfect for the speed and weight of the normal weightammo in the caliber...for 44 mag that is pretty much 240-270 some lighter some heavier...or do you give your gun a faster twist for super heavy bullets but that might perform worse with reg ammo.
You have to give some to get some...if there was some magic perfect twist that is perfect for all 44 mag ammo 180-330 grain I think all gun makers would use that twist....I think 1 in 38 was settled on because it was a twist that worked for the most common ammo and weights in the 44 magnum, you sacrifice some with super heavy bullets but you get the best performance out of regular ammo, and like someone said...if you're gonna go over 300 grain or more..maybe its time to step up in caliber to maybe 45-70 govt?
I'm purely speculating here but I think the reason the 444 benefits from a faster twist (the reason Marlin switched to that with the 444) is that it is able to propel a heavy bullet much faster than a 44 magnum, you have to consider the speed of a bullet when talking about twist, not just how heavy or long the bullet is.
There comes a point where more twist slows down the bullet to a point where the twist becomes a detriment to accuracy and potential rather than beneficial.
I think this is the case with the 44 magnum, yes a faster twist might help the 44 mag with extremely heavy bullets for the calibers over 300 grains but it might actually reduce accuracy with regular 240 grain factory ammo (could be one of the reasons the 77/44 with the faster twist has had a lot of problems with accuracy, at least from what I have read).
So if you have a rifle company making 44 magnum rifles do you go with the regular spec twist that is perfect for the speed and weight of the normal weightammo in the caliber...for 44 mag that is pretty much 240-270 some lighter some heavier...or do you give your gun a faster twist for super heavy bullets but that might perform worse with reg ammo.
You have to give some to get some...if there was some magic perfect twist that is perfect for all 44 mag ammo 180-330 grain I think all gun makers would use that twist....I think 1 in 38 was settled on because it was a twist that worked for the most common ammo and weights in the 44 magnum, you sacrifice some with super heavy bullets but you get the best performance out of regular ammo, and like someone said...if you're gonna go over 300 grain or more..maybe its time to step up in caliber to maybe 45-70 govt?
possibly more into....
I've read several times in Rifle ( or maybe Handloader, same publisher ), by Brian Pierce, that he visited the Marlin factory, and tried to convince the powers to be to switch to a 1/20 ( or quicker ) twist for heavy bullets use, and that for part of 1990 ( I think it was the year ), some '94's in .44 mag were made that way. Perhaps it was the 12 or so that TomRay mentioned. Just more info.
Mark
I've read several times in Rifle ( or maybe Handloader, same publisher ), by Brian Pierce, that he visited the Marlin factory, and tried to convince the powers to be to switch to a 1/20 ( or quicker ) twist for heavy bullets use, and that for part of 1990 ( I think it was the year ), some '94's in .44 mag were made that way. Perhaps it was the 12 or so that TomRay mentioned. Just more info.
Mark
I think wickerpedia believes in Global warming like Al Gore does
Global warming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Global warming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marlin logic goes like this, the 444 MG shoots 240-270gr bullets great, but the 44mag doesn't, so they change the 444 to 1-20 and leave the 44mag alone, it sounds like some of Marlins Management ended up working for the Government!
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