I wouldn't use Cowboy loads for hunting as they are low powered and designed for target shooting.

Mrs Willy bought her 1894C from my 4' 10" cousin Kay who might weigh 90lbs soaking wet. For the 20 years that Kay owned the gun, she got one to two deer every year with it. Her ammo of choice? Remington UMC 125gr JSP.

Mrs Willy likes the 145gr Winchester Silvertips in the 1894C. I bought a couple of thousand of the bullets several years ago and load them with slow burning powder (2400) to make the most of the longer barrel on the rifle.

Edited to add: In the heat of the moment when it comes to shooting a deer, she'll probably not notice any kick or muzzleblast no matter the 357 ammo used.

 

Good morning
As a reloader and caster I would not use any of them...
I would load up some 180 grainers at 1200 FPS and go oiut and plug some deer. Little muzzle blast and super penetration on them corn crunchers.
Those light bullets will shatter a shoulder but not get through and you can end up tracking a wounded deer many a hour.

 

You might try American eagle 158 JSP - Some here have posted its their factory hunting round but I have not shot a deer with them as I reload one very similar . They were however very accurate in my 1894 and recoil was very manageable. At 60 yrd I would think any JSP in 125 up would get the job done, with proper placement . Rifle speeds are higher and I would not recommend most hollow points

 

The American Eagle 158s that I tried in my Navy Arms 1892 worked quite well. Not as accurate as the factory 145gr Silvertip loads, but close.

 

Thanks for your input guy's it's appreciated as usual.

It look's like we have several other brand's of ammo we can try in the future.... One thing we found out with the Remington UMC 125 Grain SJSP's was they shoot MUCH HIGHER (8 inches @60 Yard's) then the Hornady's & Magtech's. I'm assuming a big part of that is because the bullet weigh's approximately 20-30 grains less.

Is it posssible to get an idea of a Catridges killing ability (in .357 Mag) on Deer by stapling a Target to a piece of 1/2"-3/4" Plywood at say 60 yard's?

In other word's, if the selected Ammo penatrates 1 piece of say 1/2" (4 ply) Plywood at 60 yard's would that be enough to go through a Deer's Lungs/Shoulder muscle? How about a 3/4" (11 ply) piece? What if the Bullet could penatrate both a piece of 3/4" and 1/2" Plywood bonded together? That's 1 1/4" inches of Plywood and you would probably need a high power Rifle or Shotgun Slug to accomplish that.

 

A round nose flat point lead bullet that is cast pretty hard and clipping along at 1100-1400fps will surprise you with its penetration. May not expand much but it will penetrate and shatter bones as it's doing it.

 

My opinion is that you'll need a wide flat nosed bullet in lead. The heavier the bullet the better on deer. I'd stay with a jacketed bullet like the 158 Hornady xtp or the ftx and learn to shoot something powerful enough to kill deer.

 

The Buffalo Bore 180 Hard Cast has a wide nose, and in a carbine, is pleasent to shoot. It puts the 357 mag in the 30-30 class "out to around 100yds". Try a box, they shot good in a '94 I traded to a fellow. The Hornady 158XTP should be devastating on double lung shots. I'm sure the cowboy loads would ruin a bucks day, but you may not recover him...bad joo joo!

 

I will offer this: Your problem is not the ammo selection, it's the shooter.

Find a round that is a good performer on game and shoots well from the rifle and then focus on the shooter. Barring some kind of injury or such, a .357 from a 6-7lb carbine should not produce enough recoil to induce flinching. Believe me, I'm NOT criticizing your wife at all, this is common especially among women and even more especially among those rather new to shooting long arms.

First thing I would do is take the money you're spending on ammo experiments and get her a good slip-on recoil pad. Yes, it will lengthen the LOP and having the stock cut and fitted with a grind-to-fit pad that suits her LOP would be preferable, but I'm guessing you're wanting to get out soon. This will also help you start working on her fundamentals and skills. If you go this route, be sure to play-up how much the pad is designed to reduce felt recoil. A lot of this game is mental.

Then I would be VERY understanding and not at all critical but try to reinforce that while the gun is going to kick, it is NOT going to hurt her. The worst she'll have is maybe a bruise but it isn't going to do anything to her. Get her focusing on the fundamentals of shooting, especially sight picture, trigger control and breathing. This will give her mind something to focus on.

And if you have her on a bench, get her off of it! Bench shooting hits a lot harder and hurts a lot more. Have her stand, kneel, sit, whatever but get her doing some off-hand shooting. Buy her one of them extendable shooting sticks maybe if you think it would help.

Don't focus on accuracy, that will come as she relaxes and conquers the gun. Don't push things, heck if she only shoots one round, okay then. Give her a chance to beat her flinch in her mind.

You're obviously an understanding and encouraging husband or you wouldn't have started this thread and be trying all the things you are. And maybe you've done all the things I mentioned above, I'm just offering it up in case you haven't.

 

+ 1 on what Erik said plus good eye and ear protection. Good ear plugs for target practice will help prevent flinching, eye protection just makes good sence. Enjoy hunting with a competant hunting partner who can also help enjoy the venison on the table. Take care, John.

 

Eli Chaps,

You bring up some good pointers and I always learn something from your posts.

This time the info about getting her off the Bench is appreciated. I did just that and had her get in all different kinds of shooting positions. We did sitting, kneeling, military style, standing against a pole, etc. She is really doing well and were using the Magtech 158 grain LFN Ammo and the Hornady 140 grain Leverevolution. Both loads hit about the same on the target. She isn't flinching and their really isn't a kick that's noticeable with this Marlin 1894CS Gun. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my posting I guess....

I just don't understand why some say the Magtech Cowboy Ammo wouldn't be a good Deer Round at 60 yards. I mean if it can go through 1.25" inches of 15 ply Hardwood Plywood (a 3/4" piece Screwed to a 1/2" piece) that seems pretty potent to me, maybe I'm missing something?

We wear Ear and Eye protection of course. Were also familiar with Hearing Loss and TINNITUS. Many people don't know about tinnitus until it's too late.... Your Ear's are just as important as your Eyes!
Shooting high power Rifles even with Ear protection still won't fully protect the very delicate Inner Hair cells of the Ear's Cochlea as sound pressure waves can vibrate off the outer Mastoid Bone.


I guess that's why were being extra cautious in the Caliber Rifles we choose to shoot and Ammo. Tinnitus is is no joke and we feel for our Troops returning home with it. Disability claims are at an all time high for hearing loss and tinnitus related to Gunshot and explosive related hearing injuries mainly from being in the Military. We still lose plenty of Sportsman each year in this Country due to the debilitating effects of tinnitus and many not wanting to live with a high pitch teapot Whistle in their head 24/7.

 

I'm glad it helped. If nothing else, the time the two of you are putting in and the practice she's getting is excellent. And time well spent together for sure!

As to the ammo choice, let me start by saying I'm not a fan of punching wood and trying to correlate to living things. Its just a reliable indicator of how something that breathes will react. I have no doubt the ammo you describe is capable of taking deer. But that doesn't make necessarily make it a good option. We need to consider things like shots that miss their mark, say hit heavy bone, or a bit far back or whatever, blood trail, etc. I'm not arguing for or against the ammo you mentioned, though I suspect it would not be my choice. I'm just trying to get you thinking about all the variables and possibilities. As always, shot placement reigns supreme and shooter discipline runs a tight second, but sporting the best ammo possible for our particular scenarios is also very important.

It's been some time ago but I read more than a few things on vibrational effects from shooting on the inner ear. Basically, the vibrations traveling along the jaw and impacting the inner ear. I was left with two opinions on the matter: 1) I believe it is a real phenomena, 2) I think you'd have shoot a LOT and some real heavy hitters to have it be a concern. I could be completely wrong and like I said, I haven't looked into too much in a long time but I suspect if it was that big of a concern, we'd see a lot more about it.

 

The magtech cowboy loads are akin to shooting 38 Spl +P ammo in a revolver. I'm sure it would kill a deer if place right but it may run quite a ways if not head shot or hit in the neck/spine. I think the problem is the soft lead bullet may not penetrate adequately. Shooting through plywood is not the same as shooting through fluid filled tissue. A 22 LR will shoot through 2" of plywood. I've shot them through 2x4's. Maybe hardwood plywood will have more resistance. If you want to test the bullet, shoot it through gallon jugs filled with water and compare how many are penetrated versus the Hornady ammo and how much disruption has taken place. A bullet that has not mushroomed will probably penetrate more than one that has but with a lot less disruption of the target medium.
I think 38 specials with a jacketed softpoint bullet would be better than the cowboy ammo.

 

Tinnitus is the dirty little secret of the Shooting World and Military and people don't like to talk about it. Just about everyone I know that has done much shooting over the Years with "HIGH POWER" Rifles and sometimes Pistols has it. Sometimes all it takes is one Shot. I'm not talking about the lower PSI Lever Guns most shoot on this site.

Theres huge difference between shooting a 300 Win Mag compared to a longer bore .30-30, .35 Remington or .357 magnum. Most people that shoot high power Rifles won't develop Tinnitus until in their 40's or 50's. It's a function of time. You only have so many Inner Hair Cells (approximately 25,000)in side the Cochlea and every time you shoot without hearing protection and sometimes with it using a huge Caliber Rifle those hair Cells will lay down sometimes never to work again. Injure or kill enough of them and you begin to develop a high tone or frequency sensorial Hearing Loss "HFSNHL", 4K notch and then usually tinnitus. It usually will only get worse from there. The Rule of thumb is if you hear a whistling or humming type sound in your Ear after experiencing a loud blast you have Already experienced a Hearing Loss.

 

I developed tinnitus.

It is also a result from medical side effects, in my case, 600mg ibuprofen prescribed for a muscle spraign. Never noticed it in the "possible side effects" warnings until it happened.

It will stop days after taking the medicine...until I take ibuprofen in any dose again.

Jon

 

I developed tinnitus.

It is also a result from medical side effects, in my case, 600mg ibuprofen prescribed for a muscle spraign. Never noticed it in the "possible side effects" warnings until it happened.

It will stop days after taking the medicine...until I take ibuprofen in any dose again.

Jon

Yep, I just had another hearing test yesterday and while the 4k "whistle" I suffer from will often keep me from falling asleep, it now even occasionally wakes me up at night.

While I always use molded hearing protection when shooting, I often won't use hearing protection (other than the little bit a helmet offers) around drag cars with open headers (I bracket race weekends that I'm not shooting). That, combined with a 2400mg/day Ibuprofen habit I had for almost 10 years, means my Tinnitus is permanent. I was taken off the Ibuprofen about 3 years ago because of a surgery I needed... Surprisingly, the joint issues I was taking it for haven't returned, at least at a pain level that I feel I need to take anything.

-Tim

 

...(snip)
Does anyone know a rough approximation of what the Velocity and Energy would be coming out of a Marlin 1894CS shooting the above Ammo? (snip)....

Marksman336-

It'd be hard to estimate, you'll probably have to put it across a Chrony...

FWIW... I recently did a LOT of testing of various 357 handloads for my 24" Marlin 1894 in 357, and was amazed at how much some loads increased velocity significantly in the longer barrel, and others did not.

What I finally concluded (and it does make a lot of sense) is with loads using faster powders such as HP38 I saw maybe a 10-15% increase in velocity out of the 24" barrel over the same ammo out of a 6" revolver. Whereas, tests with the slower powders such as H110 and LilGun saw a BIG difference in velocities between the same ammo in the two different barrel lengths. With one H110 load I saw an average of 1560fps out of the rifle, while the same load out of the revolver was less than 1100fps!

my .02,

-Tim

 

Tim Lee,

Interesting... thanks for the input.

 

I have tinnitus. I have hereditary predisposition. Then, I started taking medication that triggered it. Then, I started shooting guns (always worn hearing protection, thou). Perhaps it could be said I was born to develop tinnitus. Yet, it does not change the fact tinnitus is NOT FUN! . Protect your hearing, get suppressors (if legal in your state) or do both. I'd trade my first born for a few hours of bona fide silence!

 

I have used the Magtech Cowboy in .44 for the last two seasons, the deer/hogs don't seem to notice the difference out to 100 yds. The difference that I see is that HP's tend to come apart and can really mess up some meat. The big, slow, solid ones enter at the diameter of an expanded .30 cal and stay together.

Like you, I hunt dense woods with shots well within bow range. The solid Cowboy rounds work great with less bloodshot meat.

 

SwampGhost,

Thanks for your reply to my Posting about Magtech's .357 "Cowboy" Ammo.

I think Magtech's Cowboy Ammo is much more powerful then most Mfg's Cowboy Ammunition . In the 158 Grain LFN Round your getting approximately 1100 fps out of a 4 inch handgun barrel and I'm thinking around 1400 fps out of a Marlin 1894C 18.5" Barrel. That would be about 650 Ke at 50 Yard's plenty to kill a Deer hit properly.


The Wife & I just like that particular Ammo I guess. Hornady makes a nice .357 Round in the LEVERevolution but it has more of a crack to it not as tame as Magtech's Cowboy Ammo loaded hotter I'm sure.

Take care,

Mark