Use more than one data source (reloading manual from a manufacturer, not online recipes)

I have three, Speer (my favorite), Lyman and Lee. I choose Speer first because the data is the most objective. Lyman is overlly conservative to the point that it affects the usefulness of their data. Lee's data is affected by his persoanl preferences and his past dealings with others in the industry.

My load for 30-30 is 29gr IMR 3031 with Remington Flat Point 150s. It aint gonna set no record but it does the job and thats all I ever wanted. The 30-30s I have all seem to like it well enough. Start with a lesser loading, load twenty shells and bench them. Go up as you wish and stop before you get outside safe limits. Decide which if any loads had better accuracy. This is based on the 3031, if yoy want to try Reloader 7 consult the books, Ive never used it.

 

I am shooting nearly the exact load as Roosterb, except I am using Speer 150 gr flat points. I loaded 60 rounds of it this afternoon. Not close to my Speer manual at the moment, but pretty sure it says that load is good for 2200 fps give or take few. IMR 3031 is a great all around rifle powder. I will go to the shack and check on the fps.


Actually my old Speer manual says 28.9 grains of 3031 for 2200 fps, so 29 should bump that a tad.

 

This works for me:

Rifle: 1951 336SC in .30-.30.
Scope: Nikon Prostaff 2-7x.
Powder: IMR 3031 30.0 gr.
Case: Winchester.
Primer: Winchester LR.
Bullet: Winchester Power Point 150 gr FP.
5 shot 100 yd group size: 1.375".

The Hodgdon website lists 30.5 gr of 3031 as the max load for .30-.30 with Winchester LR primers for a 150 gr Sierra FN bullet. Several years ago, IMR's printed literature designated a max of 31.1 gr of 3031 for .30-.30 with Remington 9.5 primers and a Sierra 150 gr RN bullet. The Winchester primers have a reputation of being a bit hotter than others, and that alone may explain the difference. It is also possible that Hodgdon did some updated pressure testing after they took over IMR, and lowered the max as a result.

I view published maximums as "do not exceed" values, as I have only one set of eyes and fingers. Also, most of us use .30-.30s with the knowledge that the ongoing magnum craze is fueled more by testosterone than logic, and it is inconsistent to choose a .30-.30 and then try to muscle it over maximums to chase a velocity value unlikely to improve on accuracy and terminal performance in the field.

 

Thanks for the help folks. For some reason I have had nothing but miserable results with these bullets and W748. So I'm thinking 3031 will hopefully give me better results. However I've found out that IMR 3031 is temperature sensitive which could be a problem as I live in upstate NY. So I'm also considering H322 now as well.

 

Never had any trouble with temps, and 3031. Lots of factory ammo was loaded with 3031 for years, and may still be. One thing I have found out over the years with various powders is that the maximum load is very seldom the most accurate. Most of my 30-30's shoot 170 grain bullets a lot better than the 150's.

 

I view published maximums as "do not exceed" values, as I have only one set of eyes and fingers. Also, most of us use .30-.30s with the knowledge that the ongoing magnum craze is fueled more by testosterone than logic, and it is inconsistent to choose a .30-.30 and then try to muscle it over maximums to chase a velocity value unlikely to improve on accuracy and terminal performance in the field.

Those are some well said understatements that should be repeated often until they start to sink in.

 

You can say that again,

"... the ongoing magnum craze is fueled more by testosterone than logic, and it is inconsistent to choose a .30-.30 and then try to muscle it over maximums to chase a velocity value unlikely to improve on accuracy and terminal performance in the field."

This sort of "truth telling" will not sell gun magazines but it sure needs to be heard. Good for you, coss!

 

Thanks for the help guys I guess I will give IMR 3031 a try. Trust me folks I don't live on the raggedy edge nor do I try to make my 30-30 into something its' not. I just want a good accurate load.

 

Some of the fellers around here act like they would be embarrassed to be caught out packing an old 30-30. For a little extra distance I load spire points in my 30-30's sometimes for coyote, and groundhog shooting. I just put one in the chamber, and one in the tube for safety reasons, but you can sure stretch them out quite a bit. I loaded 40 rounds a few night ago with 110 grain Sierra Spire points with 32 grains of 3031. It has the old 30-30 up to about 2700 fps. With RE-7 the 110 grain bullets can reach very close to 3000 fps on the spire points. That turns the 30-30 into a good varmint round. I applied for a Montana antelope tag, and If drawn I will will be toting my 30-30 with one or the other of these loads.

 

336A:

I also live in upstate NY, and have found IMR 3031 to be temperature sensitive when zeroed at one temp extreme and then fired at the other end of the spectrum. An example: I dialed in a load for 7.62 x 54R at -5F, and the 100 yard POI at 70F was 5 inches higher and 2 inches to the left.

However, most deer hunts take place in a much more narrow range, from about 25-45F. I would simply zero at a temp somewhere in the 30s, and you'll likely be fine.

 

Originally from "upstate NY" 1/2 way between Buffalo & Syracuse. Now live in South Carolina. It's d*mn hot here. I go to the Adirondacks in late October/early November for a weekevery year, and now you guys have me concerned abot temperatures. My load for 30-30 (from Load Data.com) is 31 gr of 3031, using the Speer 150 gr JFP. I use peep sight rear so only have grouped at 50 yards at this point, but get 1 3/4" groups with that load & bullet. Haver yet to chronograph it. tried 30.0 gr of 3031 and groups double in size! Am I really in for a problem when I go north with low temps? Is there anyplace that can autoritively answer this?

 

Thanks for the great feedback guys. Here is a little insight as to what spurred me to ask this question. I have on hand at the moment W748 and RL15 for powders. For bullets I have Speer, Hornady, and Sierra 150gr bullets. The first powder I tried was W748 with the Speer bullets. I full length sized my brass and loaded 3 rounds each starting at 33gr and ending at 37gr as per the Speer manual. My results were dismal to say the least, groups ran around 4"+ from my scoped Marlin 336A. I had the same results when using the same powder and the Hornady 150gr bullets as well.

My buddy has the exact same rifle, he tried some of my reloads and the 35gr of W748 Speer 150gr FP combo shot great for him. I later tried RL15 with the same bullets and still had the same dismal results. Now I know some here might be thinking why not try out 170gr bullets. The reason that I haven't is due to the fact that my rifle shoots factory 150gr fodder much better than the 170gr ammo. For some reason I'm thinking that maybe I put to much of a crimp on with the LFD. But then I can't help to think if that were the case, then why did my friends rifle shoot so well with my reloads I have since loaded up some rounds for testing but I backed off the amount of crimp applied with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Here is a pic of a target shot with my reload. the 3 shots that are in the lower right was my reload (the huge group). The other groups are factory ammo.

 

I am an intermediate reloader. Haven't been doing it long, but have been doing it a lot. Around 500 rounds for my 30-30 so far. Here is where I get my starting point. I take information from a few different places. Then I add the starting and max load from a data source, and then divide by 2 to get the average load for that start and max publication.
I do this for at least 3 different sources if possible. Then I take the 3 averages and divide by 3. This is where I start the load, and then go up in .2 increments until I achieve a decent group.

Sometimes I use 3 sources, and sometimes I use 1. I always add the start and max. Then divide by 2.

(start load + max load)/2 for each source
(avg + avg + avg)/3 = starting point


If it looks like I am not getting decent accuracy then I go down in .2 increments.

This is how I do my loading. There are several ways...

Good Luck. I have also found IMR 3031 to be weird in weather differences. In 40 degree weather, 1" groups. In 70 degree weather, 3" groups.

 

Does anyone think that the above group could shrink by changing from CCI primers to Winchester?

 

I find that the Max Load generally aren't all that accurate, so I try not to start any where near them.

IMR 3031 is an excellent powder. Coss is approaching the max load with his 336.


Jerry

 

336A,
I prefer Winchester primers with 748 or similar ball powders. I would suggest trying Winchester primers with 34.5/748 which is a duplication of the Winchester factory load. Regarding bullets, the Speer 150 gr. does not shoot well in my old 4 groove 336SC (1949), but the 150 gr. power points do. In my 336A micro groove (1977) the 150 Speers shoot just fine (34.5/748/WLR).

If you would dissect one of the 150 gr. factory cartridges that shoot well in your rifle, you will find that it is loaded with ball powder, similar in burning rate to 748 so I think it is somewhat doubtful that switching to 3031 will improve your groups much.

I would try your Hornady and Sierra bullets to see how they perform. It could be that your rifle may be like my 336SC and not like the 150 Speer .

Good luck,
w30wcf

 

150 grain JFP (Speer Jacketed Flat Point)
IMR 4895 35.5 gr. 2,315 FPS
IMR 3031 35.5* gr. 2,370
H4895 34.0 gr. 2,409
Reloader 7 27.5 gr. 2,190
Reloader 12 33.5 gr. 2,320
Reloader 15 36.0 gr. 2,450
H380 38.0 gr. 2,304
A2700 37.0 gr. 2,265
A2460 32.5 gr. 2,290
748 34.5 gr. 2,310
760 35.9 gr. 2,090
* compressed load

 

30wcf I be sure to purchase some WLR primers and give the W748 another go. Funny you mentioned dissecting some factory ammo. I pulled a Win Power Point load apart the other day and found the powder charge to weigh 35.4gr.

 

30wcf & 336A,

>>I would suggest trying Winchester primers with 34.5/748 which is a duplication of the Winchester factory load.<<

>>I pulled a Win Power Point load apart the other day and found the powder charge to weigh 35.4gr.<<

This is some information I’ve been trying to find. Are these powder loads for the 30-30 with a 150 grain bullet or a 170 grain bullet?

 

everytime I have pulled a factory bullet apart I have gotten different results.

Once pulled a factory 170 Winchester PP and it had 23.6 grains of something. I would not go by what is in a factory load. Also the chart listed above has some risky looking loads. Be careful.

 

336A,
Sounds like that's in the ballpark. Based on a particular lot of powder, the factory can vary the charge somewhat to achieve the correct ballistics / pressures.

MDTrailrider,
They're for a 150 grain bullet. Winchester has shown the 34.5 / 748 recipe in their reloading phamplet for a number of years now and several lots of dissected Winchester 150 gr. standard ammuniton contained that amount of powder. That info is now on the Hodgdon website http://data.hodgdon.com/ since they now distribute Winchester powders.

Luv'm and Lever'm,
Many years ago, most .30-30 factory ammunition was loaded with Hercules "Lightning" powder which has been obsolete for a number of years. The factory charge was around 24 grs. It was very similar in burning rate to todays 4198.

w30wcf

 

http://www.reloadammo.com/3030load.htm


Guns & Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.30-30 Winchester
Reloading recipes for America's classic deer cartridge.

Bob Forker



If there ever was an example of a rifle
and cartridge being synonymous, it
would be the "Winchester Model 94
.30-30." For most of the 20th Century,
the phrase was also synonymous with
"deer rifle."
Now over 100 years old and still going strong, the .30-30 has been this country's classic hunting rifle almost since its introduction. In the pure hunting-rifle mode, the .30-30 isn't one of those calibers people think of as being popular with reloaders, but that isn't at all correct. The .30-30 is still holding its place in the top five of the rifle reloading-die sales derby.

Reloading for the .30-30 isn't difficult, but a number of things that are a little different must be kept firmly in mind. The first of these is the bullet shape. Because many, if not most, of the .30-30 guns have tubular magazines, the bullets present a special problem. With the cartridges nose-to-tail in the magazine, the point of one bullet is resting on the primer of the cartridge that is ahead of it in the tube. There is a risk of a pointed bullet setting off a primer during recoil. That would be very bad news for your left hand, but there is a simple way to avoid that situation. Every bullet maker makes special flat- or very blunt-nosed bullets for .30-30 and for other tubular-magazine guns. All of the bullets we tested here were of that style.

That message is old news but can stand repeating. Don't use pointed bullets in tubular magazines. You can use pointed bullets in a single-shot mode, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The way most .30-30s are used in hunting, a 100-yard shot is about the upper limit of range, and for that range the relatively poor ballistics of the flat-nosed bullets don't make all that much difference.

There is another factor that you run into when reloading for guns with tubular magazines. If you don't put a good crimp on the bullets, the recoil of the gun will result in bullets being pushed back into the case mouth or, in the worst situation, completely inside the case. Again, the bullet manufacturers are well up to speed on the problem. All of the bullets supplied for this kind of application have a cannelure groove. The cannelure provides a place to get the case mouth firmly crimped into the bullet.

.30-30 Winchester Loading Data
Bullet Powder Primer Case Starting
Load (grs.) Maximum
Load (grs.) Velocity
(fps)
110-gr. Speer AA-2230 Rem. 9.5 Rem. 32.0 36.0 2690
110-gr. Speer Alliant RL-7 Win-WLR Win. 28.0 33.0 2700
125-gr. Sierra VV-N135 Fed .210 Brown. 28.0 33.0 2460
125-gr. Sierra H-380 Win-WLR PMC 32.0 37.0 2475
130-gr. Speer IMR-3031 CCI-200 Front. 31.0 34.5 2450
130-gr. Speer H-BL (C)-2 N-LR Win. 29.0 34.0 2425
150-gr. Barnes Win. 748 Win-WLR Win. 32.0 37.0 2340
150-gr. Barnes H-4895 Fed. 210 Brown. 30.0 34.0 2360
150-gr. Sierra VV-N140 CCI-200 PMC 30.0 34.0 2340
150-gr. Sierra Alliant RL-15 Fed. 210 Front. 28.0 33.5 2350
150-gr. Hornady IMR-3031 N-LR Win. 26.0 31.0 2260
150-gr. Hornady H-335 W-WLRM Brown. 30.0 34.5 2370
165-gr. Barnes Win. 748 CCI-250 PMC 30.0 33.5 2200
165-gr. Barnes IMR-3031 Rem 9.5 Front. 23.0 28.0 2220
170-gr. Hornady H-335 W-WLRM Rem. 27.0 33.0 2200
170-gr. Hornady AA-2520 Fed. 210 Win. 28.0 31.5 2190
170-gr. Nosler IMR-4320 CCI-200 Brown. 29.0 33.0 2200
170-gr. Nosler Alliant RL-15 Fed. 210 PMC 27.0 32.0 2210
170-gr. PMC Win. 748 CCI-250 Front. 29.0 33.5 2150
170 gr. PMC VV-N555 Rem. 9.5 Win. 28.0 32.5 2220
*Reported velocities rounded to the nearest 10 fps.


The cannelure groove has another positive feature. Overall cartridge length is pretty important in getting good, reliable cartridge feeding out of tubular magazines. The cannelure is positioned on the bullet body so that if the case mouth is crimped into the cannelure, the overall length of the loaded cartridge is correct. The SAAMI spec for overall length is from 2.450 inches to 2.550 inches. That's a big enough spread to avoid stress over holding a close tolerance, but it is still something that you have to keep in mind. So the drill is that you seat to the cannelure and crimp tight.

On the subject of crimping, there are several ways of getting a good crimp. Nearly all bullet-seating dies are made with a feature that produces a crimp with the last little bit of motion of the press ram. These dies do require careful adjustment to get the crimp just right, and they also require careful control of case length.

Another approach is the Lee Factory Crimp die. With this die you seat the bullet in a normal fashion but without setting the die down enough to produce any crimp. The factory crimp die uses a collet to press the case mouth firmly into the cannelure groove. It isn't as sensitive to the case trim length (which should be between 2.018 to 2.038 inches) as with taper crimp dies, but you do have to be very careful to set the die properly so as not to overcrimp. It is an additional operation, but I find it to be worth the extra time.

A final difference between the .30-30 and many other cartridges is the working pressure level. Because some of the older guns that use this cartridge have breeching systems that aren't all that stout, and materials that aren't all that modern, the SAAMI pressure level is held to 38,000 c.u.p. or 42,000 psi for transducer measurements. This leaves the .30-30 a rather mild cartridge.

Powders Suitable
For the
.30-30 Winchester*
Accurate Arms 2015BR, 2230, 2460
2520
Alliant RL-7, RL-12, RL-15
Hodgdon H4198, H322, BL(C)-2
H335, Varget, H4895
IMR 4198, 3031, 4895
4064, 4320
Norma N-201, N-202
Vihta Vuori N130, N135, N140
N540, N555
Winchester-Western 748
*In order of approximate burning
rates by manufacturer. Other
powders might be used, but
significantly slower powders
should be avoided.

Fortunately, there are a wide variety of bullets, powders and case manufacturers. The .30-30's volume keeps the powder selection pretty much right across the medium rifle powder spectrum. The case uses large rifle primers. Some reloading manuals recommend using magnum primers with ball- or spherical-type powders. Other loading manuals don't seem to find the magnum primers necessary. We have used magnum primers for some of our loads. I can't see any disadvantage to using the magnum primers in the .30-30, as it is nearly impossible to have too much ignition. As with all reloading operations, always drop back to the starting-load level when changing any component. The starting-load level is sufficiently mild to allow for surprises.

The standard test barrel for the .30-30 is 24 inches long, and we used a 24-inch pressure barrel when testing these loads. But lots of this ammo is shot in guns with 20-inch barrels. You simply are not going to get factory spec velocity out of a 20-inch barrel. The listed velocities will be too high by between 100 and 150 feet per second (fps). For example, the factory Hornady load with a 170-grain bullet chronographed at 2210 fps in our pressure barrel. The SAAMI spec for this ammo is 2180 fps (plus or minus 90 fps), so Hornady's ammo meets the spec in our test barrel. If it didn't, I would suspect the barrel. In a nearly new Winchester Model 94 with a 20-inch barrel, the velocity of this same ammunition gave only 2075 fps.

Let's talk accuracy for just a moment. Lever-action .30-30 carbines with open iron sights (especially when shot standing) are not going to win many bench-rest matches. But in a suitable gun, single-loaded with match-quality bullets, the cartridge itself is capable of producing accuracy's entirely on a par with any other .30-caliber cartridge. If you can't keep your .30-30 on the paper, it probably is not the fault of the ammo.

The .30-30 is a great light-hunting cartridge, and the rifles are light and handy. It is no wonder the cartridge is into its second century.

WARNING:
The loads shown here are safe only in guns for which they were developed. Neither the author nor Petersen Publishing Company assumes any liability for accidents or injury resulting from the use or misuse of this data.

 

I've had good luck with 29 grains of IMR 3031 under 150 grain Remington or Hornady bullet. Gets me 2125 fps in my 20" Marlins. Above that accuracy degrades.

I use Winchester Primers and the Lee Factory Crimp.

I've also had good luck with the "PapaJohn Load" using 4895 and Varget. For me not driving 150 grain bullets too fast seems to improve the accuracy in my 336's. Conversely my best 170 loads are usually at or around the Max load data.

 

deleted by me

 

When you disect a factory round,how do you know the burn rate OR type of powder in it? The factory does but they're not free with that info.just curious...

 

...You can't_
there would be an empirical system to relate the length of a strip of powder to the time it takes to burn, especially if we have a reference to another powder whose progressiveness is known

...

generally the size of the kernels are already a first rough indicator of the possible combustion speed. however, it is not possible to really know the content or composition or burning speed of what is used by the factories because, without prejudice to the characteristics of pressure and ballistic speed written on the boxes, the factories can (and often they will) change the recipe at their discretion.