Can anyone tell me where I can obtain lead free bullets for reloading my 444 shells. We are in the crap state of Cali.
Bulldog#52
My opinion is that the best unleaded bullet for use with a 444 Marlin is the 44 Cal 240gr handgun bullet from Cutting Edge Bullets.
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/44-240gr-handgun-solid
I used the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator 220gr bullet with good results on a bison last winter.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/7...9-diameter-220-grain-solid-copper-fluid-transfer-monolithic-lead-free-box-of-50
I think the Barnes Bullet gives decent performance, but I never fell in love with the Barnes 225gr bullet in the 444 Marlin.
Of the three, I would go with the Cutting Edge 240gr Handgun bullet. That Big meplat is what you want to deliver a serious thump on impact. The Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator works on entirely different physics and it is effective, but very little thump on the front end. The Barnes bullet is a bit antiquated but will get the job done for deer.
The big cannelures on the Cutting Edge and Lehigh bullets allows for much greater velocities than the Barnes bullet. With the 220gr Lehigh Xtreme Bullet I found 50gr H4198 to be a max load with great accuracy over 2500fps from a 24" Microgroove barrel. I haven't done any load development with the Cutting Edge as of yet, but that is the best of the three. When I do up a load for the Cutting Edge bullet, I will be looking at a top end around 47 to 48 grains of H4198 or 49gr of RL7 and a velocity in the 2300-2400 velocity range. But those numbers are just projections until I test.
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/44-240gr-handgun-solid
I used the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator 220gr bullet with good results on a bison last winter.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/7...9-diameter-220-grain-solid-copper-fluid-transfer-monolithic-lead-free-box-of-50
I think the Barnes Bullet gives decent performance, but I never fell in love with the Barnes 225gr bullet in the 444 Marlin.
Of the three, I would go with the Cutting Edge 240gr Handgun bullet. That Big meplat is what you want to deliver a serious thump on impact. The Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator works on entirely different physics and it is effective, but very little thump on the front end. The Barnes bullet is a bit antiquated but will get the job done for deer.
The big cannelures on the Cutting Edge and Lehigh bullets allows for much greater velocities than the Barnes bullet. With the 220gr Lehigh Xtreme Bullet I found 50gr H4198 to be a max load with great accuracy over 2500fps from a 24" Microgroove barrel. I haven't done any load development with the Cutting Edge as of yet, but that is the best of the three. When I do up a load for the Cutting Edge bullet, I will be looking at a top end around 47 to 48 grains of H4198 or 49gr of RL7 and a velocity in the 2300-2400 velocity range. But those numbers are just projections until I test.
Another Lehigh Defense is 44 cal 265 gr
https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?_route_=all/429-wide-flat-nose-265gr-bullet
have not purchased as shows 1:34 twist
https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?_route_=all/429-wide-flat-nose-265gr-bullet
have not purchased as shows 1:34 twist
I went ahead and ordered some of them Lehigh Defense 265gr. Now I just might do some sort of comparison of unleaded 44 cal bullets for 444. 225gr Barnes XPB, 240gr Cutting Edge Handgun 44 cal, 220gr Lehigh Defense Penetrator, 250gr Lehigh Defense Penetrator, and 265gr Lehigh Defense Wide Flat Nose
I hate having to pull the lead chunks from my thanksgiving condor. Should use unleaded ammo to get my Condor, Good call.
Here is a line up of some unleaded 44 caliber bullet options
![]()
Left to right -
Lehigh Defense 220gr Penetrator
Barnes 225gr XPB
Cutting Edge 240gr Handgun bullet
Lehigh Defense 265gr Wide Flat Nose
Left to right -
Lehigh Defense 220gr Penetrator
Barnes 225gr XPB
Cutting Edge 240gr Handgun bullet
Lehigh Defense 265gr Wide Flat Nose
Used the Barnes for a long time, bullet performed flawlessly from very close to out thru 200 yds. Changed over to the Swift A Frame simply to change things up, but have absolute confidence in that Barnes. Sometimes lost an expanded petal, or had a petal turn inward when hit up close, but otherwise the rest of the petals always expanded into a classic buzz saw mushroom. Most of the time penetrated thru, but did recover a few.
I have done few terminal test each with the Barnes 225gr XPB and the Lehigh Defense 220gr Penetrator. They are functionally almost complete opposites.
My biggest problem with the Barnes, first and foremost is that i could never achieve the velocity desired. I do not have the data in front of me, but I seem to remeber about 2250fps was my max with H4198 and maybe close to 2400fps with AA1680. I do not like using AA1680. A person can achieve higher velocities with AA1680 but velocity spreads are extreme. So much so, are the extreme velocity spreads, that if you are working near max velocities, you'll get random spikes that will be in the red zone. I have determined that the velocity gains with AA1680 with lighter bullets in the 444 are just not worth how spooky that powder can be. So, about 2250fps is about as fast as I can push that bullet from a 22" barrel. That is about 500 ft ibs of muzzle energy loss compared to top loads with jacketed lead core bullets.
My second problem with the 225 XPB is that it dump a tremendous amount of energy on initial impact when fired at 444 velocities. The bullet is designed to open 4 petals. It performs well at lower velocities, but at 444 velocities those petals blow off on impact. The extremely deep hollowpoint continues to expand and does create a decent sized frontal area (around .755", if I remember correctly). When fired at 444 velocity, all that is done on impact and wound cavity tapers off very sharply.
Here is one of the tests.
The Lehigh Defense 220gr Penetrator forces me to view terminal performance through a different prism. I always view terminal performance through the perspective of hunting. One must recognize that the Lehigh Defense Penetrator bullets are a tactical bullet more than a hunting bullet. We generally do not think of "barriers" when we are thinking about terminal performance of hunting bullets. I have done tests using bovine shoulder bones, but that is as close to thinking about barriers as I have gone in my tests. The Lehigh Defense bullet is a tactical bullet and as such, is designed to penetrate through metal, glass, concrete, etc. For that reason it has almost zero frontal area while still having a structurally strong leading edge. The result is, when tested in water, the bullet has next to zero initial energy dump on impact. Lehigh Defense claims bigger wound channels with the Penetrator, but that is because wound channels are much longer than with hunting bullets. I'll see what I can do to get my tests with the 220gr Penetrator produced and uploaded this week.
My biggest problem with the Barnes, first and foremost is that i could never achieve the velocity desired. I do not have the data in front of me, but I seem to remeber about 2250fps was my max with H4198 and maybe close to 2400fps with AA1680. I do not like using AA1680. A person can achieve higher velocities with AA1680 but velocity spreads are extreme. So much so, are the extreme velocity spreads, that if you are working near max velocities, you'll get random spikes that will be in the red zone. I have determined that the velocity gains with AA1680 with lighter bullets in the 444 are just not worth how spooky that powder can be. So, about 2250fps is about as fast as I can push that bullet from a 22" barrel. That is about 500 ft ibs of muzzle energy loss compared to top loads with jacketed lead core bullets.
My second problem with the 225 XPB is that it dump a tremendous amount of energy on initial impact when fired at 444 velocities. The bullet is designed to open 4 petals. It performs well at lower velocities, but at 444 velocities those petals blow off on impact. The extremely deep hollowpoint continues to expand and does create a decent sized frontal area (around .755", if I remember correctly). When fired at 444 velocity, all that is done on impact and wound cavity tapers off very sharply.
Here is one of the tests.
The Lehigh Defense 220gr Penetrator forces me to view terminal performance through a different prism. I always view terminal performance through the perspective of hunting. One must recognize that the Lehigh Defense Penetrator bullets are a tactical bullet more than a hunting bullet. We generally do not think of "barriers" when we are thinking about terminal performance of hunting bullets. I have done tests using bovine shoulder bones, but that is as close to thinking about barriers as I have gone in my tests. The Lehigh Defense bullet is a tactical bullet and as such, is designed to penetrate through metal, glass, concrete, etc. For that reason it has almost zero frontal area while still having a structurally strong leading edge. The result is, when tested in water, the bullet has next to zero initial energy dump on impact. Lehigh Defense claims bigger wound channels with the Penetrator, but that is because wound channels are much longer than with hunting bullets. I'll see what I can do to get my tests with the 220gr Penetrator produced and uploaded this week.
Here is another Barnes 225XPB test. You can see clearly in this video how quick the energy dump is. All the fine mist signifies highest level of energy transfer.
You see, at max velocity, penetration is only 4 jugs. As a general guideline, expanding deer bullets should penetrate 4-5 jugs (that's 18-30 inches in water). Elk bullets 5-6 jugs and up (24-30 inches plus). That is why I chose a different bullet when it came to my buffalo hunt using unleaded bullet. For deer, I think the Barnes 225 XPB would work just fine.
Even more good information here, thanks for posting. I really like that new Lehigh 265. Look at that meplat. That thing ought to be a hammer upon impact, wow.
I was kind of surprised seeing Lehigh saying velocities for the bullets is 750 to 4200 fps. It also says in the same specs, Subsonic No, but Supersonic, Yes. Seems they need to look at their velocity chart again, I think 750 fps is subsonic.
V
I was kind of surprised seeing Lehigh saying velocities for the bullets is 750 to 4200 fps. It also says in the same specs, Subsonic No, but Supersonic, Yes. Seems they need to look at their velocity chart again, I think 750 fps is subsonic.
V
My experience with the Barnes has been as excellent, firing into water jugs is a simple test to set up, and does allow comparative results. But having fired a number of bullets into jugs, and many into the test matrix I prefer ( soaked paper with a 1/4 inch plywood to simulate bones), and later selected bullets into live deer, find the results of the jugs tests not a true representation of on game performance.
What does everyone thing about load data for that LEHIGH 265 gr. in a Rifle? - 1/20" 444P
Only Handgun data is listed .
Start with normal jacketed load date for that weight? Ive never loaded pure copper before.
Only Handgun data is listed .
Start with normal jacketed load date for that weight? Ive never loaded pure copper before.
Doing a little research I saw that the same projectile for 45-70 has load date for the 1895. Although the Wt. difference has to be accounted for (Lehigh is 380 and the closest data I have is 400 Gr) the powders and charge weights are similar. IMR 4198 looks the same. 3031 seems close but different, at least with a quick look.
Everything now but the shot.
LEHIGH 265 .429 Copper
41 Grains IMR 4198, CCI LRP, Hornady case
COAL 2.554 - Lee factory crimp
I will run them over chronograph.
Just a slight hitch going into the loading gate with this bullet but they run through the action and chamber fine.
![841755]( "841755")
LEHIGH 265 .429 Copper
41 Grains IMR 4198, CCI LRP, Hornady case
COAL 2.554 - Lee factory crimp
I will run them over chronograph.
Just a slight hitch going into the loading gate with this bullet but they run through the action and chamber fine.
Lehigh now has load data up for these bullets for the 444!
www.lehighdefense.com
.429 caliber, 265gr Wide Flat Nose Lead-Free Target and Hunting Handgun,Rifle Bullets
Buy .429 caliber, 265gr Wide Flat Nose Lead-Free Target and Hunting Handgun,Rifle Bullets at Lehigh Defense for $ 41.35. Shop Bullets Online!
Thanks. I’ve seen the data but with my Winchester 94 I’m well beyond book numbers. Pushed the 280gr aframe @2380FPS last month. Could load even hotter I figure but the thing wants to pop right out if my hands. I’ve pushed the 265 ftx to 2500fps for fun.. tip ground down.. but lately thinking the extra 100fps isn’t worth it. But like most relorders I might change my mind tomorrow lol
Thanks for that info. I see the max load of IMR is 42 grains while other data sources goes up to 45? For a 265 Hornady jacketed. (Don’t have exact data in front of me). I can’t believe there is that much difference between an all copper slug and a jacketed lead..
Does the Win 94 fall under the same load data as the Marlins?
Does the Win 94 fall under the same load data as the Marlins?
i don’t have a marlin but from what I’ve read they are saami rated for 45k whilst the 94 BB is rated for 55k. I have loaded up to 49gr imr4198 with the 280gr a frame but recoil is plain comical. The 265ftx has less significantly less recoil for some reason, I’ve worked it up to 51gr but start to wonder what the hell im doing. No signs of overpressure yet. Primers (fed215) very flat but it seems they are pretty flat on much lesser loads too So not a good indicator. I’ve read of 265gr pills being sent over 2500fps and 325 grainers going over 2250fps. I’m happier a bit under that. At 6-7lbs She’s holy hell to shoot at the bench. 😅
Many years ago when working up loads for my Winnie 444, you always hit a wall when loading normal powders for the Marlin 444.
the Winnie 444 has a absolute COL because of action design, where as the Marlin has some leeway in its action, the Marlin was more throat related then action related for COL.
So you had to use NOT NORMAL Powders that I was using in the Marlin if you wanted to squeeze out all the velocity you could get.
Scary for sure, I gave up because the winne offered nothing more the the Marlin did, plus it literally fell apart while bench testing.
but! I will say it was the the very best in a very light weight Big Bore rifle as far as carrying one afield, very light, fast to the shoulder, but kicked like a Mad Mule!
the Winnie 444 has a absolute COL because of action design, where as the Marlin has some leeway in its action, the Marlin was more throat related then action related for COL.
So you had to use NOT NORMAL Powders that I was using in the Marlin if you wanted to squeeze out all the velocity you could get.
Scary for sure, I gave up because the winne offered nothing more the the Marlin did, plus it literally fell apart while bench testing.
but! I will say it was the the very best in a very light weight Big Bore rifle as far as carrying one afield, very light, fast to the shoulder, but kicked like a Mad Mule!
I cut a bit off the receiver under the barrel to help it feed. Its dependable now and I can run the swifts and untipped ftx at 2.55 which seems ok. Sure better than stock. I put a decelerator on it right away after reading some of your old posts 
The front sight has fallen off mine. I don’t blame it really. This thing kinda explodes more than kicks with those hot rounds. While hunting it’s not nearly as bad as on the bench and I’ve whacked a few stags with it with mixed results. I’ve been surprised that the swifts do not pass through very often, even on shots 30-40 yards with 2250fps loads. The tipless ftx actually seem to whack the harder I’m my experience so far. But japan is going lead free so need to get those lehighs to work in the near future. Hoping to get that 265gr slug accurate at around 2350fps and call it good.
The front sight has fallen off mine. I don’t blame it really. This thing kinda explodes more than kicks with those hot rounds. While hunting it’s not nearly as bad as on the bench and I’ve whacked a few stags with it with mixed results. I’ve been surprised that the swifts do not pass through very often, even on shots 30-40 yards with 2250fps loads. The tipless ftx actually seem to whack the harder I’m my experience so far. But japan is going lead free so need to get those lehighs to work in the near future. Hoping to get that 265gr slug accurate at around 2350fps and call it good.
Well, I grabbed the wrong tripod today so I could not chronograph this load.
Target is only 50 yards and the lowest one was the first shot. A couple clicks up that is the resulting group.
I hung a target at 75 but ended up with a 4” 3 shot group and knew it was at least part me and time to quit.
My main purpose this morning was patterning 3.5” Turkey shells so I may have had a little flinch by the time I started to move out the 444 target.
I’m gonna try some H4895 in another batch next time as well as finish these hopefully at 100 at least. They do hang up in the loading gate but can be pushed through.
Ranger Point did send me a new gate with a much more pronounced bend in it. Hopefully have time tomorrow to get that installed....if it fits.
![845040]( "845040")
Target is only 50 yards and the lowest one was the first shot. A couple clicks up that is the resulting group.
I hung a target at 75 but ended up with a 4” 3 shot group and knew it was at least part me and time to quit.
My main purpose this morning was patterning 3.5” Turkey shells so I may have had a little flinch by the time I started to move out the 444 target.
I’m gonna try some H4895 in another batch next time as well as finish these hopefully at 100 at least. They do hang up in the loading gate but can be pushed through.
Ranger Point did send me a new gate with a much more pronounced bend in it. Hopefully have time tomorrow to get that installed....if it fits.
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