Why?

 

Why not?


.444 Marlin's relatively low MAP was established based on the strength of the 336 action. Knowing whether or not shooting certain heavy loads risks stretching the action could be useful information.

 

Why? Because I have a 43 year 444s.

Also I had a friend run a QL on a 341g bullet for a 44 cal wildcat with 96g of case capacity and it will take more the 40K psi to get 2,300 fps with a 22" barrel. THis implies to me that it would take a lot more than 40K psi to get 2,300 fps with that bullet even when using a 444M cartridge with a OAL that has been lengthened by a couple of tenths of an inch.

BB

 

Marshal Stanton used case head expansion measurements to define a pressure base line. It is not a measurement of pressure, but is a reliable pressure indicator. With that said, he shows loads up to 45gr of RL7 with his 355gr bullet.
It's also very important to understand that pressures created by jacketed bullets are greater than those from an equal weight cast bullet, as a general rule.
There are other factors that effect pressure variations from rifle to rifle. I have a '65 that has, I suspect, a tight chamber and some warm factory loads will result in sticky extraction up to where it takes a lot of force to extract the case. It's a MG barrel, so I use it to shoot the lighter bullets real fast. I am confident that my pressures aren't that high when doing load development with that rifle, because I know that soon as pressures start getting up there, I'll know it.
I wish I knew how I could pressure test for real pressure numbers, but I know little to nothing about that.

 

The methods of pressure testing cartridges and rifles leave a lot of room for improvement. Variances of 5% to 15% exist in today's modern firearm pressure testing methods. So "true" and "exact" pressures are only an estimate....not the rule.

Many on this forum shoot the heavy weight bullets and can advise on the loads they use.....stick to the standard powders for the cartridge and there should not be any issues.....and of course "work up" to the max load for "your" individual rifle and needs.

Many years ago I had a Remington 243 bolt gun that could produce no where near the "safe" pressures published in the loading manuals.........two grains short of a "safe" top end load, the bolt would lock up. After slugging the bore, I found that the bore was undersized causing high pressure at a reduced loading, so, not all firearms are the same, and that is why we "work up" loads rather than fill the case to the brim and go shooting!!!

We can use pressure only as a "guideline". By checking case expansion, case lengthening, primer condition, and in the case of the Marlin lever gun, the ease at which the fired cartridge can be removed from the chamber we can get a handle on what our individual rifles will tolerate. To put faith in published pressure data is no replacement for proper reloading safety practices.

I just wonder how many on this forum have all their loads pressure checked to deem that those loads are absolutely safe in their rifles? Few if any I will bet!!!!

 

I guess the reason I agree with the second posters question, "Why" is what is the point in going to that weight bullet, or maybe better ask, if you do, why push the velocity in to the area of "warp speeds?"

If a proper cast bullet profile is chosen, specifically one with a Wide Flat Nose, and the bullet weight is 300gr +/- it will be so effective on game within 200yds at velocities below 2000fps that nothing more is needed.

Now, if it is a factor of decreased trajectory for long range targets, just maybe the caliber chosen needs to be rethought.

I face that possibility with my 45/70 and yes, I may at some point be faced with the situation where I need to pass on a shot because of distance, but that is a decision which needs to be made before the hunt and if a person can't live with those limitations they should choose another caliber and not try to make great cartridges like the triple 4 and 45/70 into what they simply never will be, long range chamberings.

I first hunted with a 355gr WFN at 2300fps with my 45/70, and the bullet used to take a number of deer and a couple of elk since that time, a 465gr WFN at 1650fps is just so much better. In Spades!!!!!!!!!!

Enjoy the great .444 for what it is, and don't try to make it what it never will be.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

My load work gun for many years in 444Marlin is a 1964, that has seen more stout loads and more range time then a thousand 444's will ever see in a lifetime, it has seen every bullet I have ever did load work for in a OEM 444 and it has seen those bullets to the extreme top loads. Those of us who started our Handloading in the early 1970's, learned the ins and outs of working up loads without any published information, I never ever came close to blowing up any firearm, because I did it very slow and methodical. CHE (case Head expansion ) has worked for me, really that's all we had other then the visual signs, was it enough or safe, for me yes.

The other thing in my favor was I tried to blow up a 444 with normal powders we use for a 444, let's just say a steel rod was used to open the action more then not, so I kind of have a opinion on the action strength of a OEM 444.

Then there's design features that you can do that helps in controlling high pressure rounds, research Roy Weatherby.

My OEM 444 load for a 350gr hardcast bullet is around 44grs, I've tested close to 54grs for the 444AA, 10 grains difference, and if I laid a fired case next to each other, and gave you a Micrometer, and a magnifying glass and told you to tell me which fired case came from what, based on how they measure and look, you could not! There is no such thing as a free lunch, I know that getting 250fps more from the 444AA with its 10 more grains of powder is creating more pressure and strain on the firearm, you can see it in the velocities numbers and the beating from shooting it off the bench, but! Because of what Flattop does in his modification, it stays within its design function from Marlin! I'm a 444 Junkie, do you really think loading the 444AA was easy for me to do, knowing what I know about a 444 and it's numbers for top end loads in powder! I had to have a lot of faith and trust in what Flattop was telling me! I always follow the best POTUS simple rule "Trust, but Verify". Back in the day it was Trusting what I knew and verified my knowledge!

 

I am a small caliber speed freak. I have a 17/223 wildcat pushing a little 25 grainer 4200fps. What I do is watch my primer. When it starts to flatten I know I need to back off. Also a hard to open Bolt will indicate you have moved into a dangerous area.

Flat Top a locked Bolt means you were way past safe. Luckily you knew what it was and corrected it. Could have ended badly.

 

To the OP: The Safari Grade and All-American modifications to the 444 Marlin can not be compared to the OEM 444 Marlin. Yes, I use the OEM case and loading components, but, the lengthened COL and the throating reamers that I design change the pressure curve of the modified rifles to the point that they are not really "444's".....they are by their nature (exhibited by a modified pressure curve) an entirely different cartridge.

There are a lot of folks over the years that have challenged my modification of the Marlin 444, saying that pressures are extreme and I am going to blow myself up! With over 4000+ top end Safari Grade 444 rounds through the SG 444, both myself and the rifle are doing just fine. If you search this forum and read all my writings on the SG and the AA I think you will come to realize that the modification is safe as long as the rifle is in tip top shape and proper loading procedures are followed.

If you read Starrbows threads on his accomplishments with the OEM 444 on this forum, you will also realize that the 1895 444 platform is the strongest of all Marlins big bores. Those of us in the know have chosen the 444 Marlin for many reasons, and one of those reasons is the superior strength of the Marlin platform chambered in 444.

As far as heavy bullet loads Starrbow and Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets are the go to guys for the OEM 444....dont be afraid to ask Starrbow....... and, Marshalls writings and test results are well worth reading!

If you are really in doubt of the safety of heavy bullet loads for your 444, your only recourse is to have those loads pressure tested...............if, that will give you piece of mind.

 

Here we go again. Another 45/70 guy comes over here to tell us what we can and can not do! UGGHHHH!!!!

 

I am not trying to poke a hornet's nest, just curious if anyone had their loads pressure tested.

BB

 

Mt_sourdough,

No offense intended to you or anyone else.

However, I see no point in attempting to make already great calibers into something they were never intended to be.

Not when I have other rifles, also in great but different calibers, in the rack that will fill those areas of possible need and do so in much better fashion.

I make my comments because of the similarities of the 2 calibers, both of larger then average bore size and both at their best with more moderate velocities.

I shoot a RUGER #1 chambered for the 45/70, so if higher velocities were needed, I can safely go there. However after a voyage into the higher velocity levels at a bit over 2500fps with cast bullets I simply don't see the advantage.

So, if I have offended you, although with no intention to do so, I apologize.

No hornets flying around here bikerbean! Use and enjoy your .444, it is a fine cartridge.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

It's in the nature of those who seek to improve a cartridge, to do so, is PO Ackey wrong? Of Roy Weatherby, or any other wildcatter? It's fine to be happy with a OEM, I've been for most of my life, but sometimes the factory doesn't offer what you want, so Handloading is a option, it's a option with many pitfalls and rewards, as is wildcatting!

The Simple Truth is if optimum was the goal, we would have never progressed past a 30-30!

It's a tribute to Gun design, as there are very few people hurt by there Stupidity in Handloading, I've seen a few bad things happen at the range, in all those cases the design, contained the mistake!

 

It's in the nature of those who seek to improve a cartridge, to do so,

I just cant help myself!!!!!:flute:

Crusty...if you think about it, can you name one factory made lever gun that can produce the power of the SG or AA 444's (4000+ ft lbs)?

I am a firm believer that a wildcat, or a firearm modification must show an improvement over what is offered.... and the SG/AA's definitely do that. I have just made a good cartridge better...nothing wrong with that.....and, I have BIG power in my favorite type of hunting rifle. To get this kind of power from another type of firearm I would be relegated to a single or double rifle or a bolt gun, all of which I choose not to hunt with.

Everything that has been going on in this forum, and it goes back many years, has been an effort to improve the 444 and there have been many breakthrough's, and I am sure there will be more to come! For some reason (and I have no clue what it is), 444 shooters are all hot rodders at heart and just cant leave well enough alone!!!! So, the process continue's................and, no telling where it will end, but I personally am looking at 5000 ft lbs in a Marlin lever gun....using the 444 Marlin cartridge of course....and,although the 444 in a Marlin was never intended to be a 5000 ft lb cartridge, well, as I said above, I just cant help myself!!!!! :biggrin:

 

Maybe the military needs more small arms closer to 5000 ft lbs to permanently put down some of the sand fleas!

 

i just love reading any more info on the 444sg,one day my 444xlr will take the journey!!!!
pat

 

Ok, Crusty, I reacted too suddenly and I appreciate your point of view.
Here is my point of view. When I think of having a Marlin lever action rifle that can push a 300gr bullet to 375 H&H power level at the muzzle, do basically 2" up and 2" down to 200 yards and just dipping below 2000ft/lbs of energy at 250 yards, well, I suppose it is my right to get downright excited about that potential. It will allow me to ditch my rangefinder.
If the shot that is presented is too far for me to feel confident than it is too far. Then consider, when sighted in 2 inches high at 100, the bullet will drop to somewhere between -6 to -7 inches at 250.
Admittedly, it's still just a dream for me, because I won't have mine for a while, but dreaming don't make me a bad guy. Me turning into a hothead at the drop of a dime is another story.

 

Blood pressure and passion have much in common. Favorite guns/loads are passionate subjects. I have to keep the Lisinopril handy when cruising these pages.

While CDOC has many valid arguments for his commentaries (which I totally appreciate), taking in the works of Flat Top and Starrbow in the various 444's is a study unto itself. As far as "what pressure", since most of us have no means to measure, it becomes a moot point and as was pointed out, returning to the loading lessons from the 50's and 60's will keep us out of those danger zones of high pressure. All paths are not for all people. I'm in good company here.

Jeff

 

Can you image the press generated by an army brigade lying prone and nailing the adversary with gusto using 3500+ ft-lb loads from leverguns:biggrin:

 

Ranch Dog pressure tested all of his bullet designs with a variety of powders, these can be found on his website. It may or may not get you the info you want. I use his numbers and follow the guidelines of case head expansion, primer appearance and I run the other way with sticky extraction which is sometimes reached far before we think it should. As Educated Re-loaders, more information is better.

Links to RD's info:
240 gr: http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC432250RF/data/loadnotes01.pdf
265 gr: http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC432275RF/data/loadnotes01.pdf
300 gr: http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC432300RF/data/loadnotes01.pdf
350 gr: http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC432350RF/data/loadnotes01.pdf
james

 

There's some interesting reading material here. Wildcat cartridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thank goodness for wildcatters.

 

picketpin,

Thanks for the link to the RD load data. It would appear from looking at RD's data that I have have one or two other powders in my stockpile that may perform better in the 444 than the H4198 I have been working with. I wish I had some RL7 but haven't seen that one on the shelfs at the LGS near my place in a long time.

BB

 

BB, agreed on the RL7, Powder is trickling in here and there but the stuff I want seems no-where to be found. I really appreciate the effort the Ranch Dog went to with all of his load testing, it is useful info and reading his pressure notes gives a good insight into his method and attention to safety.

james

 

R7 is the cats meow in my 444's.

 

I believe if you ask Ranch Dog, he'll tell you the numbers posted on his load info are derived from a load program. As Ranch Dog moved into business mindset with his data, I think he wisely chose to offer data that is not of his making. I have chased some of that load data that he has posted and there are discrepancies between the program and real world results.
In my experience, I often find my max load lands somewhere between Ranch Dog's numbers and Beartooth's numbers.

 

Thanks for that correction, I see he does use a load program to generate his tables....

James

 

I like to play with the various computer programs for ballistics. They are fun sitting in front of the fireplace on a nasty out of season day. They surely do not replace real world load development.

Mt_Sourdough - I have just reviewed this thread, and found I inadvertently left you off the list of In-Depth 444 Development Work that included Flat Top and Starrbow (post #19). I certainly do include you in this unique fellowship and sincerely apologize for the omission.

Jeff

 

I enjoy reading people's understanding of wildcats. About a year ago I got a 45 ACP XDM with a 200 grain bullet up to 1500 fps. I tell most people that and they said I'm gonna kill myself. About 500 rounds later and gun is functioning fine. Kicks like hell but awesome weapon!