more pics

thanks for looking

 

last one

whew,,,

 

Hey 49,

Looks to be a great project.

Check out both the Lyman Shot Shell Manual and Ballistic Products.

Later, Mark

 

Thank you Mark, be doing some good reading
John

 

I'm of no help really, but my father used to have an older sxs/double shotgun with the Damascus barrels. Though I don't think it was as old as that, it was neat looking, and the barrels interesting in easy to see the coiling of wire or whatnot in how they made them. I sure wish I knew what happened to it when he passed... sigh. Anyway, I do know he had to buy special type of shells for it because of the barrels, and could be somewhat hard to find anymore, don't know? Good luck to you.

 

thanks, I've been doing some reading on how to "bring out" the markings when you re-brown or blue,,dang neat process gonna be FUN

I can get the brass shells for it on midway, and can also use emptied/shot once--regular 12 gauge just cut them down to fit, (NO crimp, glued top card)

 

That is quite the interesting little project you have there. I like it. I am afraid that I can be of no help to your questions though. Thanks for posting.

 

In the photo of the underside of barrels I can make out the provisional proof marks prior to breeching, it looks like a fancy cursivive capital EL. Also the bore diameter of 18.0 which is basically 12 ga. as you already know. I can not make out the other proof marks, but I think they are ELG which is the definitive proof mark.

 

THANK YOU for the EL,, been reading on google but still can't get a rough year, but its 18-SOMETHING

 

Been taking it apart, the dang screws even have fancy marks on them,,sweet EXCEPT I've got two that won't back out, 1 upper hand screw,,,through steel into wood, and one lower trigger guard steel into steel

and things are probably soft steel i can feel the screwdriver wanting to lift up and wreck the heads,,,,gotta put my thinking hat on

 

Locks

SWEET,
the locks are in VERY good shape,

Ive got to figure out if thats Gold inlay or just gold paint, the details are carved into the metal and filled,
this is finished in an almost gray-brown,
and in some reading(have to go back and find my bookmark, i read that the Belgian made there shotguns in 4 or 5 different qualities,
one of them was a gray finish and it was called "Midus or Midis" but had a plain stock,,,this stock is full of stripes,,
MORE CONFUSION

 

SWEET,
the locks are in VERY good shape,

Ive got to figure out if thats Gold inlay or just gold paint, the details are carved into the metal and filled,
this is finished in an almost gray-brown,
and in some reading(have to go back and find my bookmark, i read that the Belgian made there shotguns in 4 or 5 different qualities,
one of them was a gray finish and it was called "Midus or Midis" but had a plain stock,,,this stock is full of stripes,,
MORE CONFUSION

Don't take the lock apart until you have the proper main spring vise. A vise grip will not do.

 

That was a high-dollar shotgun in it's day!

You can use Hoppe's #9 and a medium toothbrush to clean all of the metal surfaces - scrub it, wipe it, scrub it again. Sometimes you'll find an identification of the type of steel on the rib just past the chambers on the top; 'London Fine Twist,' 'Belgium Fine Twist,' or that kind of thing.

I've found some of these old guns that have tiny cracks along the rib, so I clean all the crud out, then look at the joint with a strong flashlight. If there's even one crack, hang it on the wall or, if it is more than 18" from the breech end, just cut off the barrels before the crack if you want to shoot it. It's pretty easy to cut and square (and de-burr) the barrels when they're Damascus.

Here's great-grandpa's $7 shotgun.

 

biku324 thanks thats good to know and thats a NICE shotgun

heres whats on top of mine,,, (Bernard Damaskus--last word something i cant make out) maybe Laminate?

 

got it

Bernard Damascus Barrels,

the barrel still has the coat of shellac on it, as I'm working through it with acitone can't yet tell if the writing is engraved or just paint stamped looks to be only painted,,,bummer
cause its all getting re-blued,,,

 

I would have it examined by a gunsmith who knows these old guns. I have and shoot a lot of old Damascus shotguns BUT they were all originally not in disrepair to start with. The most important consideration in addition to the advice related to the rib is that if there has been any micro invasion of rust into the twisted welding joints along the barrels not visible to the naked eye, you have a potential scenario of those barrels exploding and peeling back into your face. That is why competent Gunsmith examination is paramount!! He would also be able to measure wall thicknesses along the length of the barrels. I primarily only shoot RST Shells with 3/4 oz loads with a 28 gauge dram equivalency through my old guys as they are pressure comparable to the originals BP loads of its day. The brass shells would definitely work and you could load them down as well. You could also put step down chamber inserts to use 28 gauge shells to truly reinforce the chambers to reduce the immediate transferred stress and still replicate the original ballistics with significant structural reinforcement. Great project, have fun and be safe.

 

It was checked out,by a competent gunsmith before i bought it, and my main question was, can i shoot it and not have a wall hanger safely,
(he knows i shoot BP competitions as i shoot with his dad) he told me its safe to shoot , its not in disrepair, its in good shape, just dusty from sitting, zero rust, all original, all coatings still there,
I've just started stripping its down to refinish, as thats what i like to do,and i want to bring out the damascus lines,

 

Go to trackofthewolf.com. These guys are the source of wisdom for BP. Phone number is: 763-633-2500. I will wager if you send them the pics you will get everything you need and then some.

 

Go to trackofthewolf.com. These guys are the source of wisdom for BP. Phone number is: 763-633-2500. I will wager if you send them the pics you will get everything you need and then some.

 

OK so i know nuthin about shotguns,,I'm learnin

from what I've read, the old, old shotguns were 2.5 inch chambers, for a 2.5 inch shell,,

I've got a 2.839 from the very back of the barrel to the inner lip, isn't that a 2 3/4 shell?

i need some learning here thanks,

can i still shoot the brass magtech 2.45 cases?

 

There is no way that the chamber was originally 2 3/4 in an old hammer gun of that era, 2 1/2 unless it was bored to extend it later on at some point. Safest thing is to not use more than 2 1/2 shells or those brass magtech you have are even better as they add strength to the chamber with the brass as added support. Glad to hear you had it checked out and its only surface/cosmetic. The truth of the matter is that they pattern much better with the lighter loads as well. I have a Damascus Baker hammerless SxS 12 gauge that has been bored to 2 3/4 from the original 2 1/2 and went to the trap range and with 2 1/2 / 7 1/2 shot / 3/4 oz loads with a 28 dram powder equivalency and was turning the clays into dust (RST Shells). I shot better with it than with my 12 Ga CZ O/U Woodcock and my Rem 12 ga 870 with standard trap loads. The Europeans still predominantly shoot that same way with lighter loads and learn finesse as opposed to trying turn their shotguns into hand held howitzers. I think you have a nice project going there!

 

He 49 -- great looking gun and a great project ahead. You're right about that stock. That wood has nice curl to it!

 

going nuts

Started sanding the barrels,in prep for the rust blueing
then this morning i got on google,(bad mistake)
I found the butt plate and tracked it to William Moore shotguns in ENGLAND,,,
BUT
I have Belgium proof marks,

also one of my Proof marks is a X with a star over it,--looked that up, and i get Alfred Regainer as the proofer but get this
between 1937 and 1964

this ol shotgun is going to drive me nuts,,trying to find out what "brand" name it is

i can find zero written names on this gun, and zero info on the gold inlayed dog engravings on the locks and trigger guard

I've found a number 17 stamped on the top of the right barrel--oh gawd more wanting to know what this means

 

I would guess that this was originally chambered in 2.5 inch and was later re-bored to 2.75 inch chamber. At the time it was re-bored it was then proofed again, hence the Alfred Regainer proof marks.

 

Thank YOU thats GOOD news, i was worried someone did it themselves,,and that wouldn't be good

 

A couple of the ones (Belgian) I have also have no makers identification either as many were Guild guns at that time making an exact identification next to impossible.

 

new info

so i went over to shotgun world,,Don't be mad at me,

seems the butt-plate with the F on N, in the shield
and the Circled N on the underside of the barrels

denotes it as a Neumann Freres& Co.

got this info,
Nicolas Bernard was a barrel maker in the early 1800's
my shotgun was probably made in Belgium with french barrels made 1888-1890
the written "Bernard Damascus Barrels" indicates it was made for the US market aka trade name gun for a large distributer

anyways having FUN stripping it,
been working on the locks,,
acitone scrubbing,
vinegar soak overnight, toothbrush and 600 grit,
deciding i might not re-rust these, but probably do a torch-color finish,,maybe,,i don't want to loose the gold, it aint paint, or if it is the acitone isn't removing it,
nor does the sandpaper,,methinks its gold?

cheers
John

 

that is and is going to be a nice gun!

 

Don't get too excited about an English gunmakers name on a Belgium gun, they were always using the name to sell their guns.
The Belgium's used a tougher grade of solder on their barrels and they do not tend to separate at the ribs like the British. The smith that rejoined my 10 bore and rebrowned them told me the main reason for rib separation was the practice of flushing out the barrels with the breech submerged in water. Moisture wicked up under the ribs, rusted and caused the barrel/rib joint to pop.
Brownells sells a chamber length gage.
Also the DIXIE GUNWORKS Catalogs have a ton of info on Black powder Cartridge.
I buy my wads from FLINTLOCKS INC 317-933-3441 No web site but he is on the NMLRA Facebook page.

Finally be careful, small quanties of black powder smoke can be as addictive as crack.:smokin::dancing2:

 

busy day

2 coats on the stock, hanging over my wood stove drying, i see 18-20 coats before I'm done,

sanding my brains out on the fore-end, and barrel (dang it aint no fun,,320 grit forever)

got the lock plates rust-blued, you see my mini rust box, I put over the wood stove masking moisture and a damp heat
,(changed my mind) you see them soaking in a thick coat of johnson paste wax I've done this with quite a few barrels instead of oil, and NEVER seen a rust spot,
I like the blue, shows off the gold inlay, sad that its not all there,

stay tuned more to come
John

 

Pure art

I got lucky on the trigger guard, most of the gold inlay is still there,
the artwork is amazing, the Doe is definitely of Europe drawings i remember as a kid in the old books,

soaked it in simple green over night and lightly sanded with 400 grit for the blueing to "take" now in the stem bath with the reciever (she's being a pesky old girl with all her curves)

Ive found this old gun was one of the easiest I've ever dismantled, I didn't have to fight with any screw or threaded bolt, they all just backed out,
I did find the hammer bolts to be stubborn with a screwdriver, then looking under a scope i saw that its not a square slot,
so i got my small buck knife out and yuppers the back of the blade fit right in and the bolts turned right out, maybe a forged bolt with a sharp chisel cut slot?

Having TOO MUCH FUN

Ive had two gunsmiths look at the barrels, and they say "Light loads and good to go"
but Im still wondering, maybe jut once, maybe,
Ive read the horror stories, and seen the pictures,
But i do shoot BP in a lot of other guns a lot more than modern,
Ive got an old original trapdoor the club said would never shoot, all rusted and pimpled out, I redid it and I've won and took 2cd in a few shoots, and I've never worried about it blowing up on me
and i shoot near full loads, with an ungodly heavy boolit
It is what it is
i guess

ok morning rant over I'm boring you all,
Have a GOOD THANKSGIVING
and GOD Bless you and yours

John

 

trigger gaurd

Done,
triggers and small bolt-screws next,

then total concentration on the barrels and bringing out the damascus patterns,,lots of work from what I've been reading,
Captin-morgens and acid baths TOTAL FUN

 

Gittin There

Barrel is next, need to get my chemikals to bring out the Damascus

Cheers
John