OK,

FFg smallest and for best results Fg powder grain size.

BP needs compression. If you try to use the bullet to compress the BP you will deform the bullet and accuracy is lost. A compression die is a tool that will help.

A wad is necessary to keep the powder ignition from deforming the bullet base. Otherwise, accuracy is lost.

The bullet should sit on top of the compressed powder and wad so the crimp groove is in alignment with the case for crimping.

Crimp only enough to keep the bullet from falling out. The powder will keep it from falling into the case. The sweet spot is when you can spin the bullet and not pull it out with your fingers.

Soft lead works best. A 30-1 lead - tin ratio is a tested and true alloy.

Enjoy the journey. Some of my most accurate straight taper cartridges use BP.

38-55 325 gr 40-1 alloy. Three shot group with tang sight and 62 YO eyes. BTW: Duplex load for target results.

 

Thanks Pappy.
Lots for me to chew on here.

 

JLTibbetts -
Mike Ventorino published a "primer" for loading 45-70 (and many other cartridges) with black powder. He gives very good directions for components, blow tubing, bullet lube, and the proper procedure for loading black powder cartridges.
I haven't shot any black in my 1895 Cowboy, but have loaded many rounds for my 1874 Shiloh Sharps 45-70 with my cast 405 & 500 gr. bullets. I was very surprised at how easy it was to clean my Sharps after shooting it with black powder. TOTALLY different and easier than cleaning my muzzle loaders!
The 405's shouldn't be a problem for your Marlin (watch your overall cartridge length!) but keeping within max OAL with 500 gr. bullets with required bullet stabilizing velocity and getting trouble-free cycling in your 1895 may be a bit of a challenge.
Please keep us posted on your results.

 

My only add is to please learn a lot before experimenting on your own. I was lucky to shoot with mentors who taught me how. Their most important lesson for me was that there should be no empty space in the cartridge at all (as Pappy said above, compress). Empty space potentially leads to bulged barrel or worse. Second most important lesson was that normal powder handling equipment is not recommended because the plastic creates static which can ignite the BP.

It's rewarding though! The first time I lit off my own loaded BP cartridge was exciting!

 

Sky in the little bit I have started to research this topic Mike V. has already popped up a couple times. He is on my required reading list .
I enjoy the learning process as much as the result apogee, which is a good thing when messing with stuff that go boom !!
Just what I need is a new rabbit hole to dive in!!

 

I'll add to what Pappy said, and say use a good wad. Vegetable fiber is fine but buy them .060. You need to protect the base of the bullet as best as possible. I run .060 polymer because they're rule book legal, but a lot of people use vegetable fiber.

Attached below is an example of the measurements you'll need to know to make sure your distance from the wad to the mouth of the case is exact. Despite common belief, air pockets are not dangerous with REAL black powder. Most of the "blow your gun up, bulge your barrel" myth comes from substitues like pyrodex. The original 45-55-405 load for the carbines had a significant air space between the powder and the bullet. The reason you want to try and reduce that gap as much as possible by using the mathematical equation below is to keep the wad and powder column from slamming against the base of the bullet and slumping it.

Loading blackpowder is really not that big of a deal. The only people that make a huge deal about it are those that don't do it. Just make sure you use a good lube, a good wad, and the right alloy, and the rest falls into place with a little bit of tinkering.

One last thing, pistol primers are best. Start working up your load with a standard large rifle, but once you have a load you like do try it with a pistol primer. I shoot nothing but large pistol primers for match purposes as they drop my standard deviation considerably, which is imperative out to the ram line. You may want to prime thru construction paper, news paper, or any paper for that matter. This keeps powder dust out of the primer and will also help to drop standard deviation and shrink group sizes. Some people believe this "slows" the primer down. It doesn't.

 

Excellent information guys.
The only variable in the equation is bullet length so lets see if I got this right.

 

Just replace your measurements with mine and do it exactly like in the picture.

 

Ok this is gonna be sacrilegious for some here, but any reason to not shoot jacketed bullets over BP ?

 

Yes. Jacketed bullets do not possess lube grooves. I suppose you could use a grease cookie instead? Black powder lubricant serves two purposes. One to lubricate the bullet itself to reduce leading/gas-cutting etc..., and two, to keep the fouling soft to help maintain shot to shot accuracy.

 

There is a lot of good information here. I did not see the mention of a drop tube and using one when loading black powder is to me an absolute requirement.

 

It's not necessarily a requirement. Advisable? Yes. Necessary? No. We have a guy that outshoots most of us weekly, high AAA and master level scores by simply using an electric tooth brush and holding it against each case to settle the powder. More than one way to skin a cat, and if OP is using 300gr bullets, they may not be long enough to necessitate the use of a drop tube.

 

There is a lot of good information here. I did not see the mention of a drop tube and using one when loading black powder is to me an absolute requirement.

You are correct Sir - good point!
The use of a drop tube is essential IMO for proper "stacking" of the BP before compression. I've always used this 24" drop tube when assembling BP ammunition for my Sharps rifle. In times past. the drop tube was a "required" accessory from the Sharps Rifle company when purchasing one of their rifles.
I don't load BP for handgun cartridges, so don't know if a drop tube is necessary/required for loading BP in .45 Colt or similar cartridges.

 

Anyone have suggestions for store bought boolits in 300 and or 405 gr?
For the time being I think that's a better way to go than diving in head first with casting my own.
Powder, drop tube, lube and some pills should get me started.

 

Anyone have suggestions for store bought boolits in 300 and or 405 gr?
For the time being I think that's a better way to go than diving in head first with casting my own.
Powder, drop tube, lube and some pills should get me started.

Since I cast my own, I can't be much help in locating some "store bought bullets". However, I would remind you that they will need to be lubed with one of the black powder lubes - otherwise you're surely have issues with excessive fouling, possible leading, poor accuracy, and prolonged/PIA cleaning.
Mayhaps someone else can steer you in the right direction to buy some BP lubed bullets. Please share where you find them, I'm sure there's some others that would find that valuable information.

 

Any properly fitted commercial cast bullet will work, although not well. Just clean the commercial lube out and re-lube with SPG.

You can also buy bullets from Montana Bullet Works, and order them with SPG.

 

I will check them out Travis.

 

There are companies that sell hand cast bullets lubed with SPG for BP loads. Buffalo Arms and Montana bullet works come to mind.

 

I cast my own and lube them with a Crisco beeswax 50/50 mix plus about four grains of 4198 over the primer and the rest of the case drop tubed with about 63 grains of ffg. with a milk carton wad over the powder. They are very accurate and I can go forty shots with out the barrel getting fouled. This is for a 45-70 Rolling Block.

 

So that's what is called a duplex load? I like the "shoot lots clean little approach".
I saw that lube mixture mentioned in a couple articles. No one has mentioned poor results with it.

 

Let's talk lead in case I find some molds for cheap.
Are wheel weights still 100% lead?
What's a good source for tin?

 

The drop tube makes a big difference. It compresses the powder slightly. Here's the drop tube I made.

Mike Ventruino in his book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" he says you can even hear the difference. When at the range with others shooting black powder cartridges if a drop tube is used the gun goes off with a loud CRACK! If a drop tube is not used he says the gun goes off with more of a BANG!
I can neither confirm nor deny. I've always used a drop tube for true black powder.
On the other hand if you use Pyrodex RS as a black powder substitute don't use a drop tube. You need to manually compress it, preferably with a die. Some will compress it with the bullet but you get better results if you compress it in a separate step. This is because Pyrodex is very low density. It feels spongy as you compress it. I use 42 grains (about 4.0 cc) of Pyrodex RS in my .45-70 cartridges. I then compress this 3/8 of an inch. I then use fiber wads from John Walters under the bullet using care to make sure there is no air.

 

The drop tube makes a big difference. It compresses the powder slightly. Here's the drop tube I made.

Mike Ventruino in his book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" he says you can even hear the difference. When at the range with others shooting black powder cartridges if a drop tube is used the gun goes off with a loud CRACK! If a drop tube is not used he says the gun goes off with more of a BANG!
I can neither confirm nor deny. I've always used a drop tube for true black powder.
On the other hand if you use Pyrodex RS as a black powder substitute don't use a drop tube. You need to manually compress it, preferably with a die. Some will compress it with the bullet but you get better results if you compress it in a separate step. This is because Pyrodex is very low density. It feels spongy as you compress it. I use 42 grains (about 4.0 cc) of Pyrodex RS in my .45-70 cartridges. I then compress this 3/8 of an inch. I then use fiber wads from John Walters under the bullet using care to make sure there is no air.

The drop tube doesn't compress the powder. The drop tube slowly feeds the kernels of powder into the case "stacking" them evenly so when one goes to compress their charge to make room for the projectile, there is LESS compression on the powder column. Either way, regardless of the powder used, you need a compression die.

Also, Mike wrote that book back when most people were using Goex. Every rifle on the line regardless of how the powder is put into the case goes CRACK, becuase most of us are using Swiss.

 

Nice tube set up!

 

Let's talk lead in case I find some molds for cheap.
Are wheel weights still 100% lead?
What's a good source for tin?

Bullets should be 20 to 1 lead to tin. DON'T use antimony.
I get my lead from Midway USA National Metallic 20 to 1 Bullet Casting Alloy Ingot (20 Parts Lead to
Then use lube that is specific for black powder. I use SPG Bullet Lubricant.

 

Put the lube in a pan. Then put that pan in some water on the stove. This way you can melt the lube without scorching it.
Set the bullets in the lube making sure the lube groves are all covered. Then let it cool and the whole block of lube and bullets will fall right out. I use a scrap of metal to punch out each bullet.

 

Travis what grade of powder do you use?
Why the preference for Swiss over Goex?

 

I prefer Swiss 1.5, but 2F will be fine. I've browsed the equipment list from the last few state championships and nationals that I've shot in, and most everyone across the board uses Swiss 1.5F or 2F.

Swiss is a much higher quality, "sporting powder". It delivers superior and more consistent velocity over goex, less fouling etc... etc... etc... The charcoal they use, and the rest of the ingredients for that matter are much more pure. There is an audible difference between someone shooting Goex, and someone shooting Swiss on the firing line. Goex and Schuetzen are fine for muzzleloader use but I wouldn't use them for serious cartridge use.

 

Here's more info regarding the drop tube:
https://svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=49
It looks like the same design that Skyhunter used for his drop tube.
When using a drop tube the powder takes up less space. I called that compression but Travis186 says it's just stacking the grains more evenly. I say tomato and you say ... well, check out the video in the above link regarding compression.

 

Read some books on loading back powder cartridges.
You'll find even the experts disagree about the methods as noted here:

Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 by J.S. Wolf
This is an excellent book. Wolf is of the belief that you get the best shooting results if you try to replicate the original cartridges.

He recommends drilling out the primer flash hole on the brass to .096". You don’t want to use these for smokeless cartridges so, if you also handload smokeless cartridges, you should use a punch to mark the head of the cartridges with the larger flash holes.

He does not place as much importance on the drop tube and he does not use wafer pad between powder and bullet.
Bullets should be 20 to 1 lead to tin (He says DON'T use antimony)
Use Magnum Rifle Primers
Powder should be .05" to .15" below case mouth. Compress .4" to .5".

Use 5 die set can be made from 2 Lee die sets for 45-70
1. Case sizer die
2. Expander with plug that expands (NOT flairs) to bullet diameter for the length that the bullet will be seated.
3. Powder Compression Die in an expander plug.
4. Bullet Seating Die
5. Bullet Crimping Die - actually another bullet seating die but crimping should be done in a separate step.

__

Another good book on the topic is Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West by Mike Ventruino
He also recommends Federal 215 Magnum Rifle Primers.
Ventruino says most black powder shooters use a wad between powder and bullet. But make sure there is no air next to the wad.
Says pointed bullets are not better for long range with black powder.
Ventruino uses and recommends a drop tube.

__

Another book is Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge by Paul Matthews
Matthews says to bevel the primer hole so it’s bigger on the powder side of the hole. He says do not enlarge the primer hole.
He prefers RS Pyrodex and does not use a drop tube with it but says it’s very important to compress the powder.
He says compression is virtually a necessity especially with Pyrodex since it's not as dense as black powder.
Compress Pyrodex 3/8 inch for 45-70.
Or “1/8 to 3/16 inch is about all that black powder can be freely compressed” according to Matthews.

 

Here's more info regarding the drop tube:
https://svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=49
It looks like the same design that Skyhunter used for his drop tube.
When using a drop tube the powder takes up less space. I called that compression but Travis186 says it's just stacking the grains more evenly. I say tomato and you say ... well, check out the video in the above link regarding compression.

It's not a matter of "tomato tomatoe". Using a drop tube is not the same as compressing. It's not even close, and to say they're the same thing is flat out WRONG.

Read some books on loading back powder cartridges.
You'll find even the experts disagree about the methods as noted here:

Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 by J.S. Wolf

All of the books you are stating are OLD. None of the information is up to date. Attend a state level or national shoot, and look at the equipment list. You will find very few competitors using magnum primers, and those that do use them are typically at the bottom of the score sheet. Magnum primers are simply not necessary, and a large pistol primer will yield better results 9/10 times.

I also have JS Wolf's book. No one is enlargening flash holes anymore. Another unecessary thing, proven unecessary by extensive testing and chronographs.


Want the right information? Talk to those that shoot BPCR Competitively in 2023 and win, not books written 30 years ago. 30 years ago they were still trying to piece together information lost to the sands of time, and a lot of it was wrong. From primers to bullet alloy, most of it's not right. Unsafe? No. Not going to give the best performance possible? Absolutely.