I am genuinely surprised the shoulders didn’t expand back and fire form to the chamber. I don’t have a solution for you but I have found that even the 1/4 turn with my Lee dies can set shoulders a little too far back so I’ve adjusted to push the shoulder back less on a lot of my bottleneck rounds. Good luck!

 

You could put a case with a spent primer in a fl sizing die. Fill the case with water and smack a snug fitting dowel with a hammer. should move the shoulders out.

 

Grease the cases (lightly) so they slide back and seat against the bolt base upon
firing, instead of hanging up in the shoulder area -- and extruding the primer back
into in the now extra space where the firing pin pushed the case forward.

 

Sounds doable but I was always taught to avoid lube on cases pretty much for the same reason. That is, the fierce against the bolt face increases. If they were nice light plinking loads I'd consider it but don't think I'd take the chance with full power hunting loads. It'd be pretty tough to guesstimate the tried account of lube. What might work on the first case could be too much by the 5th or 15th one. I prefer to risk messing up a couple pieces of brass more so than my rifle. It's a thought though and I'll keep it in mind if my second attempt at a tool fails.

 

...taught to avoid lube on cases pretty much for the same reason. That is, the fierce against the bolt face increases.

That was, is, and remains classic "...internet lore" (don't feel bad)
Slick/clean/polished cases & chambers are always seen as "good,"
whereas lightly lubricated cases..."BAD"
But both do the same thing -- reduce friction -- and almost to same degree.
(go figure )

See Case lube, primer flattening, pressure?
(as well as included link)
and the real pièce de résistance ... Case lube, primer flattening, pressure?

 

That is a whole bunch of oversizing. Possible to headspace on the bullet and hot up the load to put shoulder forward to avoid thinning at the head. 35 cases are expensive and hard to find and this is learning a lesson the hard way. Hopefully with your dimple method the shoulders will form evenly but I have not tried doing something like that. The tiny headspacing surface must be replicated around the case to resist movement from firing pin impact.

The primers protrude because the pressure was low enough that the case did not stretch at the head to meet the breechface. What is your loading? This is a fairly common occurrence given how much mild loading data exists. Since your last load did not form your case the correction loads will have to be hotter.

Don‘t chase factory load case shoulder location. Match to a case formed correctly to your chamber or minus at most two thou. The chamber is your gauge, not a factory load, ideally.

Lube does NOT increase force against the bolt. Certainly not to a level that will damage the gun as the bolt cannot see more force than the chamber walls. Force is exerted equally in all directions and it is impossible for lube to multiply pressure.

 

Don‘t chase factory load case shoulder location. Match to a case formed correctly to your chamber or minus at most two thou. The chamber is your gauge, not a factory load, ideally.

I feel for the OP, and this sentence has also been a discovery me, too, as new loader. I bought the Wilson case gauge thinking that would protect my novice status. Out of my first 12 or 13 rounds I fired off, 2-3 were light strikes and required a second hammer drop. I dug through these forums and thought I would have a firing pin, or cleaning, or ... or ... issue. I had some factory Remington rounds I need to shoot off to get the brass, and sure enough, not a single one of those had an issue. I'm of the opinion I over sized... Now I have ~80-90 cases I need to fire again to get back to barrel dimensions.

I intend to just trial the next round with neck sizing only, or to the @35remington quote, I'll only size enough to chamber my rifle.

I was using the shell holder from the Lee Pacesetter set, but my press is the RCBS Summit Press. It had a bit of wobble to its fit in the press. The RCBS shell holder I just bought and fits more snug without slop. I don't plan on using my Lee shell holders now for my other calibers.

Again I feel for the OP's predicament, but also thankful I didn't FL size to that degree myself. Please post how this pick poke protrusion fix works.

 

Current load in these cases is I believe 40 grains of Leverevolution. I want to say max load is 41.4??? I'm not home at the moment so can't check.

I honestly had not thought about seating the bullets out to touch the rifling. That is something that sounds really simple to do but makes me a bit nervous. I know there are many bullets and calibers where people intentionally seat them into the lands but Ive read so many times that it can cause a big spike in pressure so I personally have never tried it. It really would be the easiest fix with no need to break down the loads.

What are your thoughts 35remington? I. Mean, I realize you just suggested it but what are your thoughts on possible pressure spikes? I do have the hornady case comparator tool so I can do it precisely. Maybe just .001-.002? Heck, maybe just .001 or so short would work best?

 

No pressure spike can occur in this instance because pressure peaks after the primer engraves the bullet. There are instances when hard contact can be a problem, but it occurs less often than people think, and definitely not in this circumstance. Keep in mind the pressure is so low that it is well within the strength of the action with some reserve left over. You will be fine. In terms of powder speed LVR is rather slow compared to other 35 powders and appears to have a slower and later pressure peak.

I use 43 grains with a 200 FTX. With a 200 RN you can use up to 45 grains per some sources. The shorter bearing length of the 200 RN has a lot to do with that. Depending upon how short your throat is the cartridges may have to be single loaded through the ejection port if they exceed 2.570.”

Since neck sized cases will repeatedly chamber without moving the shoulder at all (I once fired a case 42 times without once needing to full length size it using aforementioned load) there is really not much need for moving the shoulder each time you size. One of the fallacies of loading for leverguns is full length sizing is needed all the time. In actuality you don’t need to move the shoulder at all and 0.00”, or no change, is just fine.

In actuality since pressures are low cases don’t expand much, and thus do not need to be sized much. Neck sizing works great. If a case came out of the chamber normally, it will go back in with no shoulder movement needed.

 

Thanks a bunch for that 35remington.

One other question regarding full length sizing. When I only had two rifles in 35 and was using the Lee kits previously, I had no problems dealing ammo. Later I bought a third and ran into an issue where I had cases that were getting stuck in the last rifle. Previously, I was able to swap cases between my rifle and my sons with no problems. The third rifle is an old 336a that must have a tighter chamber as rounds fired in the other two rifles were tight in the A. Lever got tight near the end of travel and the extractor couldn't pull the round back out. If I went ahead and fired the round, it extracted ok. It looks like the tight area is just about 1/4" to 3/8" above the case head groove. Basically exactly where you would look for case head separation.

When full length sizing, does the die truly size all the way down into that area? Can I iron that part out without going bumping the shoulder? I'm thinking yes but depending on case taper maybe not.

On that subject, I'm thinking it might be a simple matter to gently polish the back 3/4" or so of the chamber on the tight rifle until cases pass the plunk test. I mean, obviously the chamber is tighter than the other two. The chambers on the other two rifles should be in factory specs but they are obviously larger. I'm thinking a careful guy should be able to get them all close enough to the same size that cases from any one will fire in the other two just fine even if only neck sized. Am I wrong?

I recently did a similar polish on the rear of the chamber on an old German combination gun in 6.5x58R Sauer that was hanging in the same area. I just used fine sandpaper on a dowel and turned it by hand. To go one step further, I should be able to do chamber casts of all 3 guns and get precise measurements before and after.

Hmmm, just a thought, maybe I won't do that. The 336A is extremely accurate as it is. I shot a 4 shot group at 100 yards with the peep sights that was about 1.5".

 

StumpHunter, one other thing to look at if getting light strikes is how well your primers are seated. They should be flush or even below flush slightly. If the primers are not bottomed out, what happens is the first firing pin still pushed the primer the rest of the way in. That movement is enough to cushion the primer strike and you get a misfire. If you can just cock and fire again and they go boom, dead giveaway that primers were not seated.

In my case I had multiple misfires per case. I then discovered that if I pushed forward on the back of the bolt before firing, it moved just a small amount and all the cases fired. I honestly don't think the movement in the bolt is a defect but rather designed that way for feeding in a lever action and the case dimensions (when correct) make up for it.

I own a 30-30 that pushes primers back about the same way even on factory ammo and because the 30-30 head spaces on the rim, the shoulder should not be a factor. Likely that rifle does have a slight headspace issue but I simply neck size for it now and the problem does not occur any more. Basically NOW it headspaces on the shoulder.

 

StumpHunter, one other thing to look at if getting light strikes is how well your primers are seated. They should be flush or even below flush slightly. If the primers are not bottomed out, what happens is the first firing pin still pushed the primer the rest of the way in. That movement is enough to cushion the primer strike and you get a misfire. If you can just cock and fire again and they go boom, dead giveaway that primers were not seated.

I have one of the bench mounted Lee Primer tools, can't hurt for me to run them all again through the primer and apply a bit more pressure. Easy case study for the remainder of these primed (uncharged, unseated) cases to assess if was shallow seating. From my initial seating, they were flush or mostly below flush - I believe they are good; but I'll take your advice and give them another nudge. Fingers crossed that's the real issue.

Again, good luck on your possible solution.

 

This is one of those things I wish reloading manuals mentioned, but they don't. It's always recommended to match up the shell holder brand to the die brand. You may still end up oversizing, but it won't be so dramatic as what you've seen here.

 

Lack of radial sizing is not a problem in the 35 case. Remember the lower part of the case does not expand. It is always shoulder location. Even partial sizing squeezes the case adequately as to diameter.

Lie down until the urge to “polish” the chamber goes away. Do not do that.

 

Part of your sizing problem is you're turning the dies down way too far. This might not be the whole problem, but could very well be part of it. I know that's what the instructions say to do, but touching the shell holder and then turning the die even further, is going way too far. I learned this from watching Randy Selby's videos and also experimenting myself. Turn the die until it just touches the shell holder, and then back it off a quarter to half a turn. Size your case, and check it for fitment in your chamber. If it doesn't fit, you keep adjusting the die down slightly, until it chambers with just a hint of resistance. This way you're not pushing the shoulder back too far and you're headspace will be right. It will also make the brass last a lot longer.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with doing it this way, but it's outdated. Just buy a headspace gauge for measuring from cartridge base to datum line, and the matching shell holder to your die set. You can achieve the same thing by measuring a case, sizing it, taking the current measurement, and then use the depth gauge on your calipers to back the die out how ever many thou is desired to either set zero headspace, or apply a bump to the shoulder. It's faster, more precise, and much more repeatable.

 

A small amount of lube getting on the brass probably isn't going to hurt anything (if you have any lube on your bolt/action, a little is bound to transfer on to the brass as it cycles through the action, especially on bolt actions as the bolt slides over the top of the next round in the magazine). I wouldn't recommend heavily coating the brass though as that could lead to a serious thrust problem.

 

Again….lube doesn’t increase “bolt thrust.”

Think about why it cannot rather than repeating incorrect lore of the past.

Ask yourself….if pressure is the only thing present, how can lube increase it?

Pressure is exerted equally in all directions. It is impossible to multiply it in one direction only with lube.
Some internet and “common knowledge” needs to be refuted and we are doing it here.

Given enough pressure the case head hits the bolt face whether lube is present or not. It makes no sense that the bolt force is somehow multiplied to a damaging level. The only force the bolt sees is pressure and it is equal in all directions.

We need to drive a stake through the heart of the idea that lube multiplies bolt thrust.

 

Funny how some machine gun ammo historically was lubricated for proper function.

 

Hatcher got this wrong in one of his technical works and we’ve been repeating it ever since. If you do not understand why this is wrong, engage me here.

 

Hatcher's notes are much like the writings of Elmer Keith. It's considered gospel and no amount of factual evidence or information is going to change the minds of most people, regardless of how wrong some of it is.

 

Yes…lubricated machine gun ammo also kills that idea. Brownie points for anyone that knows what Hatcher got wrong in claiming bolt thrust increases versus what actually occurred that he missed.

 

Excuse me for being cautious. Those machine guns you refer to were designed to function that way. If the brass can't grip the chamber walls because they're slick, it will apply more force to the bolt face/lugs. If I'm wrong so be it, but I'll err on the side of caution. You do it your way, and I'll do it mine. I never said it would blow up the gun instantaneously. However, I do believe it can cause increased stress on the lockup and possibly cause lug setback.

 

Lubrication isn't going to apply anymore thrust to the bolt face or the lugs than what 40,000psi cracking off inside the case is already applying, which is slamming the case head against the bolt face anyways. What lubrication can do is dent cases because it's getting pressed between the case and the walls of the chamber.

 

You’re almost there!

Run the dent thing down and you’ve got the answer.

Hint: bullet release clearance and grease is incompressible. Another hint: competitors were daubing grease on their bullets on the end of the cartridge to reduce cupronickel fouling. Where would this excess grease build up? What would the effect of packing grease around the chamber neck do?

 

I'll be honest John, I don't give it that much thought. I just don't fret if my quick wipe with a rag doesn't remove all the case lubricant. My thought is anything at the case mouth at the point of ignition is going to end up down range like everything else, but I'm not interested in standing in front of the gun to find out.

And FWIW, I've shot hundreds of rounds of GP11 when it could still be bought. It has a wax ring at the crimp and well, my K31 will still ding whatever I can see and put the sights on out to 1000 yards.

 

Finite Element Analysis of a Rifle Chamber Surface Finish and its affect on brass cartridge case stretching and bolt face loading.

This is very in depth, and will make you go cross-eyed reading it all. But it shows that thrust does increase with a slicker chamber. It doesn't appear to be to the point of being detrimental, but it does show increases.

 

And his conclusion was it was not significant. His testing supports the idea that lube has no detrimental effect. That article refuted the idea not supports it. I read it some time ago.

Lube detrimentally increasing bolt thrust is false. Always has been….time to substitute correct knowledge that is long overdue.

Best to understand why rather than repeat what is incorrect.

 

What Hatcher mistook for “bolt thrust” was actually reducing the bullet release clearance to zero because they were packing grease in the area where the case neck needed clearance to release the bullet.

Pressures soared, and the myth of lube “increasing bolt thrust” was born.

it Is easier to repeat a false notion than examine it critically when knowledgeable people tell you it is wrong. Thus the lengthy explanation. The idea makes no sense whatsoever.

Again, only pressure is present. Lube cannot multiply pressure, and so long as pressure is normal lube cannot do anything to increase it to the point of harming the gun. If pressure is abnormal pressure is the cause, not imaginary enhanced “bolt thrust.”

There are reasons to keep lube off cases but reduced bolt thrust ain’t it.

Sorry to step on any toes but bad information needs to be refuted as part of the moderator function.

 

This is rather related to the idea that PO Ackley’s AI case shapes with minimal cartridge case wall taper reduced bolt thrust. In fact they do not and cannot. Again, his testing to prove the point did not prove what he thought.

Legendary figures from the past did a lot we owe them for but they were not infallible.

 

If you'll notice, I said that it wasn't to the point of being detrimental. But it indeed did show increases in force on the bolt face in some of the scenarios, just not to the point of being more than the action could handle. Friction increases resistance, slows things down, increases wear, does it not? Lube reduces friction, makes things move easier, does it not? So then, how does a lubed case not make it want to slide out of the chamber easier, in turn applying more force against what's stopping it? I hate to sound argumentative, but I just don't agree that it doesn't increase thrust at all. However, I did agree that it doesn't appear to increase enough to be dangerous.

Like I said before, you do it your way, and I'll do it mine. Mopping out my chambers with a degreaser isn't hurting a thing, just the same as you having lube in yours doesn't appear to be hurting anything.

 

The point you are missing is that when pressure is high enough the case head hits the bolt. Whether lube is present or not. Lube cannot multiply pressure.. Pressure is the only thing present and lube has zero effect on it.

To suggest otherwise (lube increases it somehow) implies pressure in a closed vessel can be greater in one direction than another. Physics says it can’t. If the pressure is within the limits of the action there is nothing lube will do to increase it to harmful levels. An action is rated for the pressure it contains and the bolt only sees the same pressure as is present in the rest of the chamber. Pressure cannot be more in one direction and less in another.

Again, ONLY pressure is present.

This is a very well settled point. Pressure moves the case head when the elastic strength of brass is exceeded.

Lube on a case is not a good thing. Just clarifying that the idea of “excessive bolt thrust” from the use of lube is a completely and totally invalid presumption, because it is.