...if allowed, what issues ?

 

I think we have a couple of our "Super Moderators" do reload for these pistols! I have three myself, but no dies to reload yet for them. Hopefully they poke their nose in here.

ca'jun56

 

I reload my M57 Serbian Tok with the Hornady .309 inch 90 gr XTP bullets and A2400. That combo works well in my pistol.

 

I load for CZ52, M57 Tok and C96 Mauser. Loading is straight forward as for any other bottle neck round. I use cast bullets so the necks have to be flaired with an Lyman "M" type die. I think of these pistols as my semi auto .32-20. They are all good packing pistols and fun to shoot. If you want to discuss load data or techniques, PM me.

P.S. Go ahead and shoot your corrosive ammo as it will not hurt anything. Be sure to wash the bore and slide (breech face and firing pin) and clean feed ramp in frame with hot soapy water, then use good solvent and oil as usual. Best done day of firing and on each of three subsequent days. Your guns will suffer no damage.

 

In 1930, the Soviet Union adopted the Mauser cartridge, under the designation 7.62 mm Type P, for the Tokarev TT-30 and TT-33 automatic pistols, and later for the PPD-40, PPSh-41, and PPS-43 submachineguns. Besides FMJ ball cartridges, API and tracer rounds were loaded by the Soviets during WW2 for submachinegun use. Bullet diameter was .307-.309” and weight 85-88 grains. W.H. B. Smith lists Russian P-Ball at 1378 fps from the TT33 Tokarev pistol, based upon the Soviet Red Army specification of 420 +/- 10 m/s. The US Army Foreign Science and Technology Center, Small Caliber Ammunition guide lists USSR “P Ball” as 500 m/sec (1,640 ft/sec) from the 25cm (9.8”) barrel of the PPSh-41. This agrees with modern tests of surplus ammo.

Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) described the 7.63 Mauser as developing 1300 fps. This was based upon US commercial ammunition loaded to a maximum average pressure of 29,000 psi. WW1 and WW2 German military loads approached 1400 fps from the Mauser M96 with 5.5-inch (14cm) barrel, according to contemporary sources. Hatcher stated that their penetration was eleven 7/8" pine boards, versus 5 boards for the .32-20 Winchester, .32 ACP, .38 Special and .45 Colt. The .45 ACP and .44-40 each penetrated 8 boards while the .38/.44 High Velocity, 9mm Luger, and .38 Colt Auto did nine. Only the .38 Super and .357 Magnum matched the Mauser's ELEVEN boards.

While dimensionally similar, the Tokarev cartridge has a shorter neck and operates at higher chamber pressure, than CIP specifications for the 7.63 Mauser, (36,250 vs. 30,600 psi.) WW2-era and later Soviet "burp gun ammo" is too hot to fire in the “Broomhandle.” Doing so is like feeding the old girl a steady diet of proof loads!

Yugo Privi Parisan (PPU) 7.62x25mm ammo approximates Red Army service ballistics, about 1400 fps. Starline warns hand loaders not to use .30 Mauser brass in a Tokarev. This is because its 0.03” longer neck impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter Tokarev chamber, spiking pressure and tearing case mouths off!

Both the Czech Cz52 and Russian TT pistol designs are entirely suitable for 7.62x25 loads at full MAP and are quite strong enough for any sensible load, including military surplus and modern commercial ammunition, including Sellier & Bellot, which in my chronograph tests approaches 1700 fps fired in the Cz52 with 4.7-inch barrel.

PPU (Yugo Privi Partisan)FMJ ammo shot to point of aim from my Cz52 at 25 yards. An average of ten 8-shot groups averaged 3.5 inches, with the largest group 4.6" and the smallest 2.9" This is fairly typical accuracy for fixed sight military handguns firing service ammunition. PPU ammo chronographed 1414 fps in my Cz52 and 1421 fps in the TT33. I fired corrosive Romanian “P” ball manufactured by Factory number 22 in 1984 as a benchmark. This attained an impressive 1461 fps from the TT33 pistol and over 1900 fps from a rebarrelled Remington Model 722 with 20” barrel.

Reloading 7.62x25 is easy, thanks to affordable brass of high quality brass from Starline, and Lee dies. There is no need to frustrate yourself cutting down, resizing and neck reaming 5.56mm/.223 brass to feed your Пистолет браконьера (Poacher’s Pistol).

Before loading for your 7.62x25 you will want to make a chamber cast. Measure both chamber neck and ball seat diameter. There is wide variation in chamber diameters in the east bloc stuff and groove diameters ranging up to .315. I've never seen a 7.62x25 barrel smaller than .308” groove diameter, but I have seen chamber necks as small as .330” which precluded loading bullets of diameter larger than .308”!

A charge of 5 grains of Bullseye was recommended by Hatcher for the 7.63 (.30) Mauser. It is also listed by Lyman. This starting load won’t cycle 100% in my Cz52 or the TT33 with the 87-grain Accurate 31-087B, but does with the heavier 100-grain 31-100T. My RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #10 meters an actual weight averaging of 5.3 grains of with current Alliant and cycles both pistols reliably with either bullet. Velocity approximates PPU at 1400 fps with Accurate 31-087T, or 087B and 1370 fps with 31-100T. It approximates the .30 Mauser at 1300 fps with the 90 grain Hornady XTP.

“Magnum pistol” powders : Alliant 2400, H110/W296, and VVN110 all work well in near case capacity full loads. With the 7.62x25’s short neck, bullet pull may be inadequate to prevent bullets “telescoping” into the powder space, if bullet fit in the sized neck is not correct. Bullets suited to the M1 Carbine work best when a case full of slower-burning powder provides support to the bullet base, in the same manner as if loading black powder in the .44-40 Winchester. Having the bullet base protrude below the neck-shoulder junction does not cause problems when jacketed bullets are loaded when slower-burning powders such as #2400 are used which fill the case. With fast-burning powders and loading cast bullets recommended practice is to avoid deep-seated bullets to minimize risk of gas cutting and bullet base deformation. Good results are easily obtained with bullets optimized for the 7.62x25 such as the Accurate 31-087B and 31-100T.

Based on previous successful experience in the .32 ACP I decided to try Olin AutoComp in loading for the 7.62x25. A charge of 7.4 grains was metered using RCBS Little Dandy measure rotor #9 which meters the 5.0 grain start load with Bullseye. This proved satisfactory giving 1353 fps with the Hornady 86-grain SP and 1450 fps with Accurate 31-100T.

Water jug tests with the Hornady .309" diameter, 90-grain XTP were impressive, blowing the first gallon jug to smithereens in a manner similar to 110-grain .357 Magnum loads. The XTP bullet expands to about .50 caliber, stopping in the third gallon jug, denting its far side, not exiting. This is entirely adequate penetration for a defense load. PPU FMJ loads shoot clear through a 40-inch stack of water jugs and whistled through the trees downrange, as would be expected.

Test firing my Polish copy of the TT33 there were no surprises. Point of impact firing PPU FMJ with its fixed sights was about ½ inch high at seven yards, two inches high at 25 yards, four inches high at 50 yards and “dead on” at 100 yards. Sandbagged, handheld groups were about 3 inches at 25 yards, cast loads a bit better. All manner of cast bullets of various shapes fed reliably, even the Accurate 31-095T which has a ¼” meplat! The advantage of a bottlenecked case! The start load from Lyman, 5 grains of Bullseye occasionally bobbled with 85-87-grain bullets, but cycled reliably with Accurate 31-095T and 31-100T. Increasing charges to 5.3 grains ran every cast bullet tested!!! The RCBS Little Dandy measure Rotor #13 measures about 10 grains of Alliant #2400 which cycled both guns well. Velocity was 1277 fps from the TT pistol with the 93-grain Norma .307” FMJRN, and 1777 fps from the Remington 722. Plainbased cast bullets of 13 BHN alloy did not lead severely, and shot well in the pistol, but did lead rather badly and shot wildly when launched at over 1800 fps in the 20” rifle.

Data are summarized in the accompanying table.

Table 1 – Velocity Test Data for 7.62x25 in TT3 Pistol Vs. 20” Rifle

Handloads in Starline cases with CCI500 primers

Ammunition Description___________Vel@15ft., Sd, ES n=10
____________________________________TT33, 4.6”_______________Rem. 722, 20”
Romanian Type P Ball, Factory 22, 1984____1461 fps, 27 Sd, 76ES_____1903 fps, 17 Sd, 50 ES
Yugoslav PPU Ball,_____________________1310, 26 Sd, 66ES________1684, 15 SD, 50 ES
Hornady 86-grain SP, 7.4 grs. AutoComp_______1353, 20, 71_____________1872, 17, 51
Accurate 31-100T, 7.4 grs. AutoComp_________1450, 16, 50_____________1846, 13,40, barrel severely leaded in rifle
Accurate 31-087B, 5.3 grs. Bullseye___________1433, 28, 71_____________1567, 18, 62, barrel lightly leaded in rifle
Accurate 31-087B, 10.8 grs. #2400___________1321, 11, 32____________1821, 11, 27, barrel moderately leaded in rifle
Norma 93-gr. FMJ .307”, 10.8 grs. #2400______1277, 18, 44____________1777, 25, 46, Very accurate in all guns tested.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

In 1930, the Soviet Union adopted the Mauser cartridge, under the designation 7.62 mm Type P, for the Tokarev TT-30 and TT-33 automatic pistols, and later for the PPD-40, PPSh-41, and PPS-43 submachineguns. Besides FMJ ball cartridges, API and tracer rounds were loaded by the Soviets during WW2 for submachinegun use. Bullet diameter was .307-.309” and weight 85-88 grains. W.H. B. Smith lists Russian P-Ball at 1378 fps from the TT33 Tokarev pistol, based upon the Soviet Red Army specification of 420 +/- 10 m/s. The US Army Foreign Science and Technology Center, Small Caliber Ammunition guide lists USSR “P Ball” as 500 m/sec (1,640 ft/sec) from the 25cm (9.8”) barrel of the PPSh-41. This agrees with modern tests of surplus ammo.

Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) described the 7.63 Mauser as developing 1300 fps. This was based upon US commercial ammunition loaded to a maximum average pressure of 29,000 psi. WW1 and WW2 German military loads approached 1400 fps from the Mauser M96 with 5.5-inch (14cm) barrel, according to contemporary sources. Hatcher stated that their penetration was eleven 7/8" pine boards, versus 5 boards for the .32-20 Winchester, .32 ACP, .38 Special and .45 Colt. The .45 ACP and .44-40 each penetrated 8 boards while the .38/.44 High Velocity, 9mm Luger, and .38 Colt Auto did nine. Only the .38 Super and .357 Magnum matched the Mauser's ELEVEN boards.

While dimensionally similar, the Tokarev cartridge has a shorter neck and operates at higher chamber pressure, than CIP specifications for the 7.63 Mauser, (36,250 vs. 30,600 psi.) WW2-era and later Soviet "burp gun ammo" is too hot to fire in the “Broomhandle.” Doing so is like feeding the old girl a steady diet of proof loads!

Yugo Privi Parisan (PPU) 7.62x25mm ammo approximates Red Army service ballistics, about 1400 fps. Starline warns hand loaders not to use .30 Mauser brass in a Tokarev. This is because its 0.03” longer neck impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter Tokarev chamber, spiking pressure and tearing case mouths off!

Both the Czech Cz52 and Russian TT pistol designs are entirely suitable for 7.62x25 loads at full MAP and are quite strong enough for any sensible load, including military surplus and modern commercial ammunition, including Sellier & Bellot, which in my chronograph tests approaches 1700 fps fired in the Cz52 with 4.7-inch barrel.

PPU (Yugo Privi Partisan)FMJ ammo shot to point of aim from my Cz52 at 25 yards. An average of ten 8-shot groups averaged 3.5 inches, with the largest group 4.6" and the smallest 2.9" This is fairly typical accuracy for fixed sight military handguns firing service ammunition. PPU ammo chronographed 1414 fps in my Cz52 and 1421 fps in the TT33. I fired corrosive Romanian “P” ball manufactured by Factory number 22 in 1984 as a benchmark. This attained an impressive 1461 fps from the TT33 pistol and over 1900 fps from a rebarrelled Remington Model 722 with 20” barrel.

Reloading 7.62x25 is easy, thanks to affordable brass of high quality brass from Starline, and Lee dies. There is no need to frustrate yourself cutting down, resizing and neck reaming 5.56mm/.223 brass to feed your Пистолет браконьера (Poacher’s Pistol).

Before loading for your 7.62x25 you will want to make a chamber cast. Measure both chamber neck and ball seat diameter. There is wide variation in chamber diameters in the east bloc stuff and groove diameters ranging up to .315. I've never seen a 7.62x25 barrel smaller than .308” groove diameter, but I have seen chamber necks as small as .330” which precluded loading bullets of diameter larger than .308”!

A charge of 5 grains of Bullseye was recommended by Hatcher for the 7.63 (.30) Mauser. It is also listed by Lyman. This starting load won’t cycle 100% in my Cz52 or the TT33 with the 87-grain Accurate 31-087B, but does with the heavier 100-grain 31-100T. My RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #10 meters an actual weight averaging of 5.3 grains of with current Alliant and cycles both pistols reliably with either bullet. Velocity approximates PPU at 1400 fps with Accurate 31-087T, or 087B and 1370 fps with 31-100T. It approximates the .30 Mauser at 1300 fps with the 90 grain Hornady XTP.

“Magnum pistol” powders : Alliant 2400, H110/W296, and VVN110 all work well in near case capacity full loads. With the 7.62x25’s short neck, bullet pull may be inadequate to prevent bullets “telescoping” into the powder space, if bullet fit in the sized neck is not correct. Bullets suited to the M1 Carbine work best when a case full of slower-burning powder provides support to the bullet base, in the same manner as if loading black powder in the .44-40 Winchester. Having the bullet base protrude below the neck-shoulder junction does not cause problems when jacketed bullets are loaded when slower-burning powders such as #2400 are used which fill the case. With fast-burning powders and loading cast bullets recommended practice is to avoid deep-seated bullets to minimize risk of gas cutting and bullet base deformation. Good results are easily obtained with bullets optimized for the 7.62x25 such as the Accurate 31-087B and 31-100T.

Based on previous successful experience in the .32 ACP I decided to try Olin AutoComp in loading for the 7.62x25. A charge of 7.4 grains was metered using RCBS Little Dandy measure rotor #9 which meters the 5.0 grain start load with Bullseye. This proved satisfactory giving 1353 fps with the Hornady 86-grain SP and 1450 fps with Accurate 31-100T.

Water jug tests with the Hornady .309" diameter, 90-grain XTP were impressive, blowing the first gallon jug to smithereens in a manner similar to 110-grain .357 Magnum loads. The XTP bullet expands to about .50 caliber, stopping in the third gallon jug, denting its far side, not exiting. This is entirely adequate penetration for a defense load. PPU FMJ loads shoot clear through a 40-inch stack of water jugs and whistled through the trees downrange, as would be expected.

Test firing my Polish copy of the TT33 there were no surprises. Point of impact firing PPU FMJ with its fixed sights was about ½ inch high at seven yards, two inches high at 25 yards, four inches high at 50 yards and “dead on” at 100 yards. Sandbagged, handheld groups were about 3 inches at 25 yards, cast loads a bit better. All manner of cast bullets of various shapes fed reliably, even the Accurate 31-095T which has a ¼” meplat! The advantage of a bottlenecked case! The start load from Lyman, 5 grains of Bullseye occasionally bobbled with 85-87-grain bullets, but cycled reliably with Accurate 31-095T and 31-100T. Increasing charges to 5.3 grains ran every cast bullet tested!!! The RCBS Little Dandy measure Rotor #13 measures about 10 grains of Alliant #2400 which cycled both guns well. Velocity was 1277 fps from the TT pistol with the 93-grain Norma .307” FMJRN, and 1777 fps from the Remington 722. Plainbased cast bullets of 13 BHN alloy did not lead severely, and shot well in the pistol, but did lead rather badly and shot wildly when launched at over 1800 fps in the 20” rifle.

Data are summarized in the accompanying table.

Table 1 — Velocity Test Data for 7.62x25 in TT3 Pistol Vs. 20” Rifle

Handloads in Starline cases with CCI500 primers

Ammunition Description___________Vel@15ft., Sd, ES n=10
____________________________________TT33, 4.6”_______________Rem. 722, 20”
Romanian Type P Ball, Factory 22, 1984____1461 fps, 27 Sd, 76ES_____1903 fps, 17 Sd, 50 ES
Yugoslav PPU Ball,_____________________1310, 26 Sd, 66ES________1684, 15 SD, 50 ES
Hornady 86-grain SP, 7.4 grs. AutoComp_______1353, 20, 71_____________1872, 17, 51
Accurate 31-100T, 7.4 grs. AutoComp_________1450, 16, 50_____________1846, 13,40, barrel severely leaded in rifle
Accurate 31-087B, 5.3 grs. Bullseye___________1433, 28, 71_____________1567, 18, 62, barrel lightly leaded in rifle
Accurate 31-087B, 10.8 grs. #2400___________1321, 11, 32____________1821, 11, 27, barrel moderately leaded in rifle
Norma 93-gr. FMJ .307”, 10.8 grs. #2400______1277, 18, 44____________1777, 25, 46, Very accurate in all guns tested.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

WOW! What a wealth of knowledge! :adore::adore: Thank you! Yesterday, I took a 7.62X25 in trade for some light construction and drywall work. I had't had time to check anything out. Again, thank you!

 

Thanks for the info. My usual retailer looks to be out of dies now, but has brass and bullets available.

 

Shoot the corrosive. Ive shot thousands of corrosive rounds no issue Just clean immediately, easy pistols to clean. Not sure about the Bulgarian but I loaded up with Romanian 1225 tins at $119 each. Great ammo. I do reload but but can’t come close to the cost of shooting surplus. Heck that surplus was so cheap that it was cheaper to buy and pull the bullets for M1 carbine reloads than to buy carbine bullets.

 

Do you need to detail strip weapons after shooting corrosive ammo? Somehow I have gotten away without doing that.


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Ok. I see Hornady makes a Tokarev bullet after looking at my old reloading manual. Time to assemble the gear.


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