I did a search and read topics on the 50 Alaskan. Bottom line...does anyone think that they are worth the cost in increased TKO Vs. a hard hitting lead cast bullet from a 45/70? The 45/70's are pretty cheap and the 50 Alaskan's are expensive enough to buy most any rifle you could desire...including African rifles.
joecool911
If money was not a consideration a 50 would be fun, but would it kill em any deader than rhe Old Timer.
Mark.
Mark.
G
Depends on wherether you need it or just want it.
Bigger holes bleed more, and hard cast lead is not ideal when something that can hurt you needs to go down.
Bigger holes bleed more, and hard cast lead is not ideal when something that can hurt you needs to go down.
Then why do most dangerous game rifles shoot solids? Does solid copper kill better than hard cast lead? A fellow down the road from me killed two cape buffalo with one shot with a hard cast 45-70 bullet. What more could one want?FWiedner said:Depends on wherether you need it or just want it.
Bigger holes bleed more, and hard cast lead is not ideal when something that can hurt you needs to go down.
G
I'm not sure that most professional hunters consider hard-cast lead to be a true "solid". And yes, I am lead to believe that solid copper does kill better than hard-cast lead. A fellow up the road from me fired a 540 gr hammerhead from a 45-70 at 1550 fps into a cape buffalo. It broke 3 vertebrae and lost 1/2 its length and weight. He said that the 540 gr would have put the bull down by breaking the spine, but the smearing was severe. It turned downward and went into the front of the diaphram tissue, above the stomach. He then fired a 450 gr Northfork solid at 1700 fps which took out 7 vertebrae, cut between the shoulder and chest and went through the neck (head hanging down) into the face of the buffalo. Penetration around 50 inches.JBledsoe said:Then why do most dangerous game rifles shoot solids? Does solid copper kill better than hard cast lead? A fellow down the road from me killed two cape buffalo with one shot with a hard cast 45-70 bullet. What more could one want?FWiedner said:Depends on wherether you need it or just want it.
Bigger holes bleed more, and hard cast lead is not ideal when something that can hurt you needs to go down.
(Edited... I got a mixed up while trying to pass on information from a couple of posts from another forum. Sorry, didn't intend to pass on bad information. Hope I got it straightened out this time. :-[ )
His statement on the event was "I will personally never shoot another hardcast bullet at a thick skinned, dangerous or heavy animal."
Here's his story:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17575
The Kodiak bullet isen't hardcast and neither is the punch bullet so why does he swear them off?? ??? Did I miss somthing?? Didn't seem he used Garrett's heavy 550 hardcast @ 1550fps? That would have been my choice for a brain shot when all you need is max penitration. Weird ???
Whats with the guide and client jumping into the truck and taking off in some kind of hurry? Doesn't congradulate the client or take photos? ??? Seems fishy to me.
Whats with the guide and client jumping into the truck and taking off in some kind of hurry? Doesn't congradulate the client or take photos? ??? Seems fishy to me.
The 50 sounds cool. My main reservations are if it REALLY is going to make a noticible difference and you would have a HELL of a time finding ammo for it... Of course as of others have said if you really want it that is the overruling factor....
Be safe
Patty
Be safe
Patty
To get a true picture of mono metal or steel clad solids, you need to do some searching on forums such as accurate reloading, or 24hr. campfire. BTW Garret has quit promoting the hardcast hammerheads for game such as elephant, hippo, cape buff and rhino. Heis only reccomending his exiter ammo, for them[500 gr. Hornady steel solid].
I've done a lot pf reading on the punch bullet, and if I were ever to go back to Africa, and take my Marlin 1895, .45-70, for cape buff, I would be using the punch bullet, loaded to about 2000 fps. Here is a good read on the 50 Alaskan/punch bullet for ele.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/560100986?r=220109996#220109996
Mad Dog
I've done a lot pf reading on the punch bullet, and if I were ever to go back to Africa, and take my Marlin 1895, .45-70, for cape buff, I would be using the punch bullet, loaded to about 2000 fps. Here is a good read on the 50 Alaskan/punch bullet for ele.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/560100986?r=220109996#220109996
Mad Dog
I've got 4 45/70 levers ( 3 marlins of different barrel lengths and one is a winchester 1886) and a 50 alaskan. Most of the time I load the alaskan to 45/70 'hot loads' but if needed, I can shoot the 500 + grain bullets 400 fps faster from the same length barrel in the 50. Is it needed? Can't say, is it comforting, sometimes yes. The extra frontal area gives better shock and sectional density on the big bullets is around .3 which is optimum for good penetration. In light 300's I can get 2200fps in a 26 inch 45/70 vs 2600 fps in a 26 inch 50 alaskan.
As far as cost goes, for play I use a Lee cast 500 grain flat nose-- cost is the same as cast for a 500 grain 45/70. For serious use, Barnes, Woodleigh or Alaska Bullet works bullets all run about $1.00 a shot in either 45 or 50 caliber. From a cost standpoint, the 50 burns a bit more powder and I bought Starline cases at $94.00 a hundred when I had the gun made. The alaska may be a bit more costly to shoot, but not much. AS far as this discussion goes, I see it as the difference between the 45/70 and 50 alaskan is about the same as the difference between the 444 and 45/70. With the 45/70 being the 444 in this discussion. Do I enjoy it? Yes, so much that the 45/70s stay at home now. ;D
As far as cost goes, for play I use a Lee cast 500 grain flat nose-- cost is the same as cast for a 500 grain 45/70. For serious use, Barnes, Woodleigh or Alaska Bullet works bullets all run about $1.00 a shot in either 45 or 50 caliber. From a cost standpoint, the 50 burns a bit more powder and I bought Starline cases at $94.00 a hundred when I had the gun made. The alaska may be a bit more costly to shoot, but not much. AS far as this discussion goes, I see it as the difference between the 45/70 and 50 alaskan is about the same as the difference between the 444 and 45/70. With the 45/70 being the 444 in this discussion. Do I enjoy it? Yes, so much that the 45/70s stay at home now. ;D
If both the 444 and 45-70 are loaded to modern standards, it would be very hard to tell them apart, if you want a .50cal levergun, go for it, it's always nice to own a firearm that you really want. You really can't go wrong with a 450/45-70, Marlin in there infinite wisdom
sure makes enough different models to suit most folks wants. Sometimes you just have to let go and get that firearm, you don't need, or have any use for, it just feels good!
sure makes enough different models to suit most folks wants. Sometimes you just have to let go and get that firearm, you don't need, or have any use for, it just feels good!
The 45/70 has been killing ship on this planet since 1873
Get back to me which the 50 has that track record
Get back to me which the 50 has that track record
Even fairly light brush throws bullets off target.
My standard .45-70 hunting load (350g North Fork @ 2181fps) delivers over 5,000fpe at the muzzle. I have other loads that go to 500 grains. The .444 is a good cartridge but more powerful it isn't.
My standard .45-70 hunting load (350g North Fork @ 2181fps) delivers over 5,000fpe at the muzzle. I have other loads that go to 500 grains. The .444 is a good cartridge but more powerful it isn't.
Your standard 45-70 hunting load gets, 3698fpe, not 5,000fpe, my 444AA ( flattop modified COL of 2.750 ) gets 2300fps with a 350gr hardcast, and 4112fpe. my hunting load for our OEM 444's with a 300gr hardcast at 2300fps gets 3525fpe, no animal on earth could tell the difference on which nailed them, no hunter on earth could look at the dead animal and say for sure which animal was shot with what. It's just great these numbers are from a Marlin Lever gun!
Not to me but I don't plan on hunting anything larger than elk. My .45-70 works fine for that. If I ever get to AK iI'm sure it would work fine for moose and brownies as well.
As with most of us there is a big gap between needing and wanting. 'Needing' a .50 Alaskan is probably, under an applies-apples comparison, unrealistic when one compares its cost in relation to heavy 45/70 loads. 'Wanting', however is an emotional itch that can only be satisfied when the new gun is in your hands. If you want one; I think all of us would say go out and buy one! And don't forget to show us the pictures.
I have a .460 Weatherby Magnum for anything that requires more than my 45 70 .... I havent had to use the .460 ever so far....
Hey Leverlad, that 460 Weatherby is one hell of a rifle,:shot: If I remember from our conversations I think it is my old one. :hmmmm:You mean to say you have not used it yet,
after me telling you how it was a monster shoot.:biggrin:
Oh well when you feel like hurting yourself have a shoot and let me know how you fared.:ahhhhh:
after me telling you how it was a monster shoot.:biggrin:
Oh well when you feel like hurting yourself have a shoot and let me know how you fared.:ahhhhh:
I've been considering a 50 Alaskan Marlin, might have to take the plunge! I MUST be ready for the South Carolina White Rhino when I come across it!! Currently I have my 45-70's and my 416RemMag, so.....the 50 Alaskan would just be a natural progression for me!!! And YES I have considered the 458WinMag......just because!
I don't really see the point as a necessity, but then again, I'm not filthy rich. If I was, I'd buy what I darn well pleased. Not because I needed it, but wanted it. But for now, the 45-70 is powerful enough, and a heck of a lot more convenient.
Not sure everything that that are doing but I know the action is being lengthened in order to seat bullets out further in order to have more powder space. Also they are freeboring like a Weatherby in order to reduce starting pressures.
The loads listed are standard to us, as in Handloaded ammo, not factory. The 444AA is the same as a 444SG, as far as the modifications go, but my AA is 1-38 Twist with MicroGroove, where as the SG is the 1-20 Ballard, do a search for 444SG, if your curious.
Loaded to there potential, both the 444 and 45-70 are far more similar then different, there are differences, for the most part no animal could tell the difference. Both can be Mild to Wild, and both have a very opinionated following, it's a good club to join!
Loaded to there potential, both the 444 and 45-70 are far more similar then different, there are differences, for the most part no animal could tell the difference. Both can be Mild to Wild, and both have a very opinionated following, it's a good club to join!
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