This is a hot topic here. In a nutshell there is no real difference in yout hunting field. I have used the 444 for years and am happy. Without reloading the 444 is a dandy deer cartridge. I feel it is the best balance of power and recoil.

 

Hey NW,

The bullet selection for 45/70 is wider, and readily available. If you were to acquire a 444 with a 1:38 twist, you would need to use higher velocity projectiles. Of course, with a 240 JHP at velocities in excess of 2,000fps., deer are DRT. Pretty much the same as with a 45/70, using a 350gr cast @ 1200fps. Bottom load, for 45/70.

This thread should see some active discussion, in the next few days. LOL

Later, Mark

 

The local gun show is coming up in March and I was thinking it might be time for a big bore Marlin. To date, I'd thought that it should be an 1895 of some configuration in .45-70, but after checking Hawks ballistics and recoil webpages, it seems that the .444 puts out more energy with a good bit less recoil than the .45-70...

I'd ruled out the .450 Marlin a while ago after watching some videos of guys shooting that round and reading the recoil tables. I live in Virginia, and having a big bore is merely for fun, not for bears. That cartridge looks brutal to shoot.

Other than ammo availability and variety (I'm not a reloader...yet) and the need to go with a 22" barrel, is there a compelling reason to go with a .45-70 (I was already leaning toward the 22" in the 1895 anyways)?

Night Wasp

:ahhhhh::ahhhhh::ahhhhh::ahhhhh::flute:

 

My preference is the 444 Marlin®. Factory ammunition is available from Buffalo Bore®, Hornady®, Remington, & Wisconsin Cartridge® to name a few. You can get 240gr, 265gr, 270gr, 300gr, and 335gr. If you want a "Do it All" load, from mice to moose; get Hornady® Superformance® 265gr JFP (SKU: 82453). It's the "Gold Standard" in 444 Marlin® factory ammunition performance..........
• Hornady® 444 Marlin 265 gr InterLock® FP Superformance®

 

Night Wasp I came here over a year ago with the same question :biggrin: I've shot them both and you can't go wrong with either one...

As msharley points out the 45/70 is way more in the bullets offered. Jacketed from 300-500gr. cast start under 300 and go to 570gr:ahhhhh: no don't let it scare you...My 500gr cast is like a 12ga shot gun, and is Safari grade load. My 350gr Jsp will let you know...@ 1975fps (ain't no bench load) :biggrin:

(I'm not a reloader...yet) ...:hmmmm: well IMO neither of these guns are cheap with factory ammo... Yep your doing yourself a disservice not loading.
When you start you will save money, increase accuracy, have extreme ammo selection :topif you choose the right gun:biggrin and gain another big adventure, yes reloading is addictive.

I would encourage you to venture over to the Marlin rant section...Remlins are a issue We hope Remington is getting their head out... and I don't want to scare you. I want you to know what to look for...because a Marlin is a levergun like no other:top: You can find excellent used or get a Remlin.

I will through this in 444 guys can correct me but...I think Remington has a stop on some of the 444 (not sure). Hey we are here for you either way you go.

Another + to the reloading is... you can download to your comfort level :vollkommenauf: If you don't consider the cost of the rifle in your shooting cost... Please
don't consider the 300-350 you pay for reloading kit. OK Night Wasp JUST ONE MORE HINT:biggrin: just have someone show you a 444 video doing this.

 

A: 444
B: 45-70
C: 450
D: Any of the above

No matter which one is picked, you will have a hard time finding Quality factory ammo for it, I do not think the Leverevolution is quality ammo! As I browse the ammo isles of any sporting goods stores I come across, most times the Remington 444 240gr ammo is on the shelves, Remingtons 405gr 45-70 ammo, and Hornadys 350gr 450!

Now there are custom ammo manufactures out their, offering many bullet options for the 444 and 45-70, but their not cheap!

The Remington 444 ammo is good for deer size game, the Remington 405gr ammo IMHO is also good for deer size game, but the 450 is good for anything that walks in North America!

If I did not reload I would go for the 450Marlin, no matter where you find ammo, it will be the same and will do it all! I have found that the 450Marlin is not a killer kicking rifle, I have only shot the one with the ports and IMHO that's the one most likely you would find in a gun shop!

I would order a GBL/SBL type rifle tomorrow if they made it in 450!

 

After having spent a few hours reading the .444 forum last night, I knew I was opening a can of worms. But, I wanted to get a good education on the topic before dropping some money on a big bore.

The .444 does seem to be a great round, but the 1-38 vs. 1-20 twist and the different bullet weights had me a bit confused. I have a 1960 336 SC in .35. It is microgroove.

I was thinking the microgroove came after the ballard in the .444, the same way it did in the 336, but apparently the ballard came second right?

Anyone know what year the ballard started back up? Ideally, I think I'd like a ballard rifled gun that predates Remington's muddling. Anyone have a year range that would cover these two parameters?

From my reading, it seems that the ballard will shoot both the lower velocity and the higher velocity offerings well while the micro tends to prefer the higher velocity only right (probably a can of worms on this one too) ?

As for the Remlin vs. older Marlin, I have an opinion on that already. I'm going with a used .444 for sure. My 1960 SC is a solid piece of American craftsmanship. Holding the current offerings from Remington in my hands has caused me to be thankful for the old 1950s and even 1980s Remingtons I already have.

Thx for your help guys! Can't wait to join the .444 forum.

Night Wasp

 

After having spent a few hours reading the .444 forum last night, I knew I was opening a can of worms. But, I wanted to get a good education on the topic before dropping some money on a big bore.

The .444 does seem to be a great round, but the 1-38 vs. 1-20 twist and the different bullet weights had me a bit confused. I have a 1960 336 SC in .35. It is microgroove.

I was thinking the microgroove came after the ballard in the .444, the same way it did in the 336, but apparently the ballard came second right?

Anyone know what year the ballard started back up? Ideally, I think I'd like a ballard rifled gun that predates Remington's muddling. Anyone have a year range that would cover these two parameters?

From my reading, it seems that the ballard will shoot both the lower velocity and the higher velocity offerings well while the micro tends to prefer the higher velocity only right (probably a can of worms on this one too) ?

As for the Remlin vs. older Marlin, I have an opinion on that already. I'm going with a used .444 for sure. My 1960 SC is a solid piece of American craftsmanship. Holding the current offerings from Remington in my hands has caused me to be thankful for the old 1950s and even 1980s Remingtons I already have.

Thx for your help guys! Can't wait to join the .444 forum.

Night Wasp

444 & 45/70 switched from Microgroove® to Ballard rifling in 07/1998.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/444-marlin/33133-team-444-membership-60.html#post941661

 

444 shoots a little flatter and will handle all North American game. If i was going to Africa, I'd go with the 45-70. 45-70 ammo is easier to find. I have both, as others have already said , either one is not a bad choice. Do a lot of research. Find out where u can buy ammo and for how much. The .444 in 240-265 is pretty hard to beat for all around North American game. The 45-70 would make a better elephant gun. Good luck and have fun in your search.

 

We have 2 45-70's at our house, a CB and G. Love them both. After watching the 444 v 45-70 threads from a humorous distance the 444 intrigues me enough to want one. For what we do with the 45's the 444 would do it just fine too. The 22" barrel would fill in the void we have now between 18" and 26" barrels. I haven't studied the 450 much so my impression is that it is designed to be a top end 45-70 but it can be loaded tame too. I tend to stay away from top end anything so the 450 doesn't get my blood stirring much.

I reload so none of the calibers availability would get in the way. From what you described you will do with it you can pick either one, find a good factory ammo source, and enjoy. In this day of internet sales it doesn't matter what you can find on the shelf. If you can't walk up and grab it just order a bunch online. Online prices are usually low enough to make the freight a non-issue with a multi-box order.

Jeff

 

Most if it has been said already. Either cartridge will kill any Western hemisphere animal dead right there. I am a bit partial to the .45-70 as I reload and cast for it and the variety of bullets is almost endless. What ever you choose, get on the reloading and casting program unless your income is in the top 1%. Ammo is dear. As far as recoil goes, a 350 to 450 grain bullet from an 1895 rifle at 1200 to 1400 fps is not unpleasant. Raise the velocity to 18 or 1900 fps and it is painfull regardless of bore diameter.

 

If you are going to buy ammo at your local sporting goods store you will find more 45-70. All the local shops sell 45-70 only one sells .444. If you reload the Beartooth bullets raise the bar. I own a .444 and a 45-70 (Ruger #1) I find my self devoting more time in the last two years to the .444. You can use my thought process and get one of each.

 

If you are going to buy ammo at your local sporting goods store you will find more 45-70.

While this statement is true, it is also misleading, Yes 45-70 ammo is found in a lot of places, but! it is the COWBOY 45-70 type ammo, 405gr bullet at 1300fps, IMHO just simple plain plinking ammo! Any other 45-70 ammo is few and far between and quite costly!

IMHO it has always been very easy to find Remington 240gr Green Box ammo! At one time Hornadys 265gr load was also very easy to come by, but! times change!

444, 45-70 has always been more of a handloaders cartridge!

 

What Starrbow said about the 45-70 ammo is quite true. Of course that is the same velocity and type of 45-70 that helped to downsize the buffalo herds in the 19th century. Had the .444 been available then I am sure it would have contributed to the buffalo demise, but it was developed 100 years too late.

 

BR549 OK but it wasn't there, so :eviltongue:

LOL Billy Comstock used a 44cal...very effectively too...but when the chips were down he lost to Bill Cody and most likely a Big 50 :hmmmm:
All thing were not equal (Cody was riding Brodie) a very savvy horse :biggrin:
Of course either of these Marlins would be a + to them guns.

 

I think for a 130 or so years old the 45/70 is holding its own against the newer 444.

 

I've owned a .450 for about 5-6 years a .444 for about 4 years and a 45-70 for about 4 years also. I have decided that as far as one being the "best" for most of my hunting, the .444 wins in my mind. I finally scoped mine to take advantage of it's excellent accuracy and will be using it a lot this coming season for deer, hogs and bear-over-bait. Will either of the other two move out? Nope! I like them all and will use them all, but to me the .444 is the best package of performance and moderate recoil for me.

As far as finding ammo in a store close by, I would not have a clue as I have not purchased any ammo in any "store" in several years. I remember to bring my ammo when I travel :flute: and make all my purchases in advance via the internet. Lots of places sell lots of "hard to find" ammo at good prices. For .444 fodder look to Wisconsin Cartridge, HSM Ammo, and then also to Midway, Cheaper than Dirt and others. High performance ammo that would cost big $$ from such makers as Buffalo Bore, Doubletap, Grizzly and similar, can be had at some of these "other" makers for reasonable prices if you do not handload.

 

I had the exact question about a year ago. Many pros and cons for each, but I ended buying the first good deal I found, which happened to be a 444s. No regrets here.

 

Sorry to burst the 45-70 history bubble, but! by 1873 the buffalo herds were already devastated, the 45-70 wasn't a factor at all, but! the 45-70 is still a great cartridge in a Marlin lever gun! The American Indian loved the 45-70, whats not to love about free Rifles and ammo!

 

:biggrin: LOL that's why Cody had a Big 50 in the shooting contest :biggrin: But it would have been much easier with a 45/70... them 50 cal bullets dang near killed my pack mule just toting them to the killing fields

 

A wonderful member shared a load for a 444 that might have the same effect as the 45-70 in this case. Perhaps he will try the same test and tell us how it went?

 

ok man do it! post the video when done.

 

I enjoy these discussions about which is best. Best way to settle is do like i have, get one of each!

 

My dad can beat up your dad... My truck is faster than your truck... My cartridge is more powerful than your cartridge...



I have to say that I have both, and both chamberings are pretty good for what they are. Both of them are a reloaders dream, but both of them with "off the shelf" ammo are pretty disappointing. Some of the more premium ammo will wring out the best in what both chamberings have to offer - - but who wants to spend $50 for 20 rounds? With my handloads, either of my rifles are more than capable of killing any critter in North America. The .444 may not have 139 years of history behind it, but who cares? With the proper loads, the .444 gives up very little to the .45-70 and does so with less felt recoil, IMO.

I don't really see where one cartridge has any specific advantage over the other. That being said, both cartridges have an extremely devout and loyal fan base. The argument is pretty much a moot point - - much like the .30-06 vs. the .270 argument... Or the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge argument... Or the Blonde vs. Red-head vs. Brunette argument... Or the whole wheat vs. rye argument...

Easiest way to settle the argument is like others have said - - GET BOTH! Then have some real fun. :biggrin:

 

Easiest way to settle the argument is like others have said - - GET BOTH! Then have some real fun. :biggrin:

This is also the best answer to the age old "Ginger vs. Mary Ann" question.

I do believe that the 45-70 & 450 are the only two that can be had in a guide gun size though, correct me if I'm wrong. !

That would be the 444P, or Outfitter. Made for a couple years around 2000, then discontinued

 

Big bore rifles and cartridges kill with great effect. You can't go wrong with either. I do believe that the 45-70 & 450 are the only two that can be had in a guide gun size though, correct me if I'm wrong. The one thing that I have seen alot of people post is how these things kick with the recoil. It may be because I own a .416 Rigby and my first handgun ever was the .44mag but I don't understand what supposed to be bad about the recoil on these three cartridges. My wife & my nephew have shot my guide gun with some fairly strong loads. Both of them I could just about pick up at one time so they're not big people. Man, get yourself a big bore and don't look back. Get two and your smile will be even bigger. Get three and nobody will be able to tell you anything, LOL!

 

Night....I am also in Virginia and I own all 3, and I have hunted with all 3.

About the toughest game you will run into here is a black bear. Either the 444, 45-70 or 450 will do the job well.

I have found the 444 the most pleasant to shoot. The best ammo by far over the counter is the 265 gr Hornady FP. It is accurate, it has excellent penetration and mushrooms perfectly. I find that this rifle tends to go out the door with me more often than others when hunting time comes around.

The 450 is basically a "modernized" 45-70. It takes the 45-70 loads and steps them up a notch. However, there are 45-70 loads that come very close to the 450. For the 450 Marlin, I prefer the 350 gr Hornady ammo. I dropped a 1500# buffalo with it a few years ago with one shot. Please note, the recoil is a bit stout if such things bother you.

The 45-70 splits the gap between the others in terms of recoil and punch. There are so many loads to choose from it can boggle your mind. When in doubt, go to Midway on line to the ammo section and pull up various manufacturers 45-70 ammo and look them over and read users reviews. I must admit that something about this round stirs me and makes me feel rather secure when hunting with it.

Hope this helped you some.

 

Alright, the hunt is on for a post 1998 (Ballard) and pre-Remlin .444. If anyone has one they "need" to get rid of, let me know.

Any Big Bore purchase by me will be purely to acquire another Marlin levergun. No hunting or logical rationale behind it, but you guys understand don't you?! :hmmmm:

 

Whoa,

Don't forget a .444 means a little less Government in your life.

Good luck

Mckmain

 

LOL! Yes Indeed!:top:

 

I refuse to get into this topic, I've been there done it years ago; and it will go on forever.

 

I refuse to get into this topic,I've been there done it years ago and it will go on forever.

Eight years, 54 posts....YOu're a chatty fellow, aintcha?