Looking to pick up a new lever in the next couple days on trade for a pistol, and i've been offered a 45-70 and a 444. i've owned a 45-70 before and loved it. any suggestions of one over the other? they're bother straight cases, so no problems with reloading. thanks!
AJYaros
If you are reloading they are both great. For me I would go with the 45-70. More options with reloading and easier to get components. That's why I got mine anyway. But if I want a real hotrod to tinker with the 444 is the way to go. Read up on 444 safari grade and/or 444 all American and you can see all about its potential.
i owned a 45-70(nef), it was ok. it knocked a few deer over and at 100yds the 405gr remington did 2.5" at three shots. i have a 444 marlin on the way, tc encore with 23" MGM heavy factory barrel, annd i can't wait. 265gr hornady fp with a load of h4198 or rel7 will def. do the deer/black bear up. next year, there's a gas check 280-325gr and a light load of trail boss and 240gr lead bullets too.
I have nothing against the 444 but feel that the 45-70 is just a bit more versatile and easier to find ammo / components for. JMO
.45-70 Rules!! :hmmmm:
(Just kidding... they are both great calibers although the .45-70 is more versatile if you hand load.)
(Just kidding... they are both great calibers although the .45-70 is more versatile if you hand load.)
They both can be very rewarding to own, load for, and shoot. If you can explain what you plan to do with it there may be better suggestions.
AJY,
For one reason mainly right now, I'd say, 45/70 ------- BRASS --------
Triple 4 brass, well you better just figure on buying factory fodder if you can find it.
At least, you still once in awhile see 45/70 brass and Starline - great brass - makes a run now and again.
Stay away from the hooky Hornady gummy nose factory ammo, as they had their head in the sand when designing the triple 4 and 45/70 FTX ammo and make it with a non-standard brass length.
It can still be hand loaded, but some dies will not adjust down far enough.
Then, if the going gets tough, the gummy nose bullets are lacking a bit in integrity and in some situations expand way to fast and way too much, leaving excessive wound channels. And yes, I have seen this when dealing with and butchering a friends critter. Excessive if your hunting with meat on the table as the desired end result.
So for triple 4 or 45/70, just simplify the bullet situation and go with a good Wide Flat Nose cast. 275gr or larger with the triple 4 and something over 400gr with the 45/70.
My 465gr WFN at 1650fps is awesome on deer and elk from my 45/70!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
For one reason mainly right now, I'd say, 45/70 ------- BRASS --------
Triple 4 brass, well you better just figure on buying factory fodder if you can find it.
At least, you still once in awhile see 45/70 brass and Starline - great brass - makes a run now and again.
Stay away from the hooky Hornady gummy nose factory ammo, as they had their head in the sand when designing the triple 4 and 45/70 FTX ammo and make it with a non-standard brass length.
It can still be hand loaded, but some dies will not adjust down far enough.
Then, if the going gets tough, the gummy nose bullets are lacking a bit in integrity and in some situations expand way to fast and way too much, leaving excessive wound channels. And yes, I have seen this when dealing with and butchering a friends critter. Excessive if your hunting with meat on the table as the desired end result.
So for triple 4 or 45/70, just simplify the bullet situation and go with a good Wide Flat Nose cast. 275gr or larger with the triple 4 and something over 400gr with the 45/70.
My 465gr WFN at 1650fps is awesome on deer and elk from my 45/70!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
I think the 45-70 is a bit easier to get ammo and components with more options. I like options. LOL
They are both very good. Big bore Marlin lever rifles are impressive.
They are both very good. Big bore Marlin lever rifles are impressive.
There was a time when I was confronted with the same choice, which one to choose, 444 or 45-70. I chose the 444 and never looked back. Lots have changed since then. I didn't reload back then, there was no Internet to get information from and factory ammo was plentiful and cheap compared to today's prices. Now I reload, factory ammo is expensive if you can find it, 45-70 ammo is loaded much hotter than it was back then too. Still I can find no reason to switch to the 45-70. The 444 does all I ask of it. The 444 has an edge on the 45-70 for my purposes with projectiles up to 300 to maybe 350 grains. In the heavier weight projectiles the 45-70 takes over. However I have no need for any thing over 300 to 350 grains. I currently use 300 grain bullets for all of my deer and bear hunting and while I have no doubts that they will take a moose I also have 355 grain bullets should I draw a moose tag. No need for me to move up to heavier projectiles and more recoil, it's not needed. Honestly I can't think of any reason to choose the 45-70 over the 444 for my hunting purposes. If you have a certain desire for one over the other that would be the deciding factor otherwise the 444 does more with less for my hunting needs.
I would go with the .444 as the recoil from the commonly used bullet weights in each caliber is a lot less with the .444 and 444 or triple 4 is easier to say than foortee five seventee. it's easier two tipe as well but the unedukated might think you stu stu stu tterr with a 444. editted two korrect spelin erors. 444 oners are smarter and kooler than foortee five sevintee oners, "who let all this riff raff into the room ?" Pink Floyd.
9 out of 10 grizzly baers preferred to be kilt with a 444 over any other caliber. The tenth bear was kilt by a garbage trukk.
9 out of 10 grizzly baers preferred to be kilt with a 444 over any other caliber. The tenth bear was kilt by a garbage trukk.
This subject usually stirs the pot pretty good around here...
Personally, I have owed and hunted (hogs) with both.
I prefer the 444.
But you'll get plenty of arguments from both camps...
Someone will be along soon....
Yes, 444 brass is harder to find but is still readily available ............... kinda pricey though.
However, let me say I traded my mint 1895SBL for a 444 plus a little boot. Does that answer your question?
The 444 will do anything in North America that a 45-70 can do, including the big bears.
However, let me say I traded my mint 1895SBL for a 444 plus a little boot. Does that answer your question?
The 444 will do anything in North America that a 45-70 can do, including the big bears.
We really don't have enough information to advise you. Is the 444 an early one with a straight stock and high comb with 24" microgroove barrel? or an S model with a smooth stock and no checkering and 22" microgroove barrel. Is it a pistol grip SS model with checkering, microgroove barrel,and a safety or a straight stock and 18½" 444P with a Ballard barrel. Maybe it is a stainless 24" barreled XLR model with a Ballard barrel and 1:20" twist? Then there is the fact that this is a 444 forum so most of us would choose a 444 over a 45-70. I mean how could you trust a person on a 444 forum that would tell someone to buy a 45-70. They may have a motive like keeping all the 444's for themselves.:hmmmm:
Well, I'll take a bit of a different direction here, but even with that know that I am not in any way a hater of the triple 4. Not at all.
However, much of the information I read on the forum about shooting and hunting with this fine cartridge speak of loads fired in excess of 2000fps. Some well in excess.
My first cast bullet critter was taken with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) 45/70 bullet sent out the tube at just over 2300fps, and let me tell you I never want to see that size of a wound channel again. And this from what is basically a non - expanding bullet or one on which expansion would be minimal at worse.
Explain to me why a similar bullet fired at similar velocities from the .444 would not give similar and excessive results.
Well then, enter my next critters, more deer and a couple elk, taken with again, the 45/70, but this time with a 465gr cast WFN at the rather sedate velocity of 1650fps, that bullet and weight provide for great and long penetration, being very deadly while minimizing the meat loss of the lighter but MUCH faster bullet of similar design.
So, again not hating the triple 4 in any way, but if a person were to follow what I see to be the common trend of plus 2000fps velocities many times used with the .444, why wouldn't there be the same excess of wound channel and meat loss that was seen with the light for .45 caliber 355gr bullet in the 45/70 when similar bullet designs are used?
Recoil ------------- Well, the 465gr cast bullet in the 45/70, fired at 1650fps recoils MUCH LESS, I mean LOTS!!! less, then the 355gr at 2300 - 2500fps fired from the same rifle, so why would a heavy for caliber bullet in the .444 fired at 2000+ velocities not also be heavy in recoil.
Saying all the above to just to give a bit different perspective to the .444-45/70 question.
Although I really believe a .444 could get er done, with the 45/70, I have the advantage of much greater penetration at a lower velocity with less recoil then I might see with a .444 if loaded to the levels I typically see listed.
Could be happy both ways, but the big heavy bullet in my 45/70 has really made a believer of me.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
However, much of the information I read on the forum about shooting and hunting with this fine cartridge speak of loads fired in excess of 2000fps. Some well in excess.
My first cast bullet critter was taken with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) 45/70 bullet sent out the tube at just over 2300fps, and let me tell you I never want to see that size of a wound channel again. And this from what is basically a non - expanding bullet or one on which expansion would be minimal at worse.
Explain to me why a similar bullet fired at similar velocities from the .444 would not give similar and excessive results.
Well then, enter my next critters, more deer and a couple elk, taken with again, the 45/70, but this time with a 465gr cast WFN at the rather sedate velocity of 1650fps, that bullet and weight provide for great and long penetration, being very deadly while minimizing the meat loss of the lighter but MUCH faster bullet of similar design.
So, again not hating the triple 4 in any way, but if a person were to follow what I see to be the common trend of plus 2000fps velocities many times used with the .444, why wouldn't there be the same excess of wound channel and meat loss that was seen with the light for .45 caliber 355gr bullet in the 45/70 when similar bullet designs are used?
Recoil ------------- Well, the 465gr cast bullet in the 45/70, fired at 1650fps recoils MUCH LESS, I mean LOTS!!! less, then the 355gr at 2300 - 2500fps fired from the same rifle, so why would a heavy for caliber bullet in the .444 fired at 2000+ velocities not also be heavy in recoil.
Saying all the above to just to give a bit different perspective to the .444-45/70 question.
Although I really believe a .444 could get er done, with the 45/70, I have the advantage of much greater penetration at a lower velocity with less recoil then I might see with a .444 if loaded to the levels I typically see listed.
Could be happy both ways, but the big heavy bullet in my 45/70 has really made a believer of me.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
444 vs 45-70
I had the choice between a 45-70 long barreled marlin and a model P 444 marlin when I bought mine. Barrel length was the deciding factor as I bought the rifle specifically for close range encounters with dangerous animals after an encounter with some bears in Wyoming. The model P with its ported short barrel is much faster handling and if it had been a guide gun in 45-70 I would have bought that over the longer barrel also. I also figured the ported barrel would be faster to get back on target for follow up shots if needed. I really don't have any preference of 444 over 45-7o or vice versa. They are pretty equally matched in my opinion. Each has advantages and special qualities over the other but both are great calibers. edit to add this. the one deciding factor to me would be availability of factory ammo and components in the future. Very few 444 caliber factory guns are still being produced. Everybody is still making and selling 45-70 guns. Hope they don't ban me for pointing that sad fact out.
I had the choice between a 45-70 long barreled marlin and a model P 444 marlin when I bought mine. Barrel length was the deciding factor as I bought the rifle specifically for close range encounters with dangerous animals after an encounter with some bears in Wyoming. The model P with its ported short barrel is much faster handling and if it had been a guide gun in 45-70 I would have bought that over the longer barrel also. I also figured the ported barrel would be faster to get back on target for follow up shots if needed. I really don't have any preference of 444 over 45-7o or vice versa. They are pretty equally matched in my opinion. Each has advantages and special qualities over the other but both are great calibers. edit to add this. the one deciding factor to me would be availability of factory ammo and components in the future. Very few 444 caliber factory guns are still being produced. Everybody is still making and selling 45-70 guns. Hope they don't ban me for pointing that sad fact out.
Since you posted in the 444 section, go with that - your subconscious mind is telling you something.
If you never plan to reload, that might factor in... a bit. But still...
I'm a big fan of the 444, so take that into consideration.
If you never plan to reload, that might factor in... a bit. But still...
I'm a big fan of the 444, so take that into consideration.
You may want to google .444 *and* 45-70 ballistics specs.......to compare one to the other.
IIRC the .444 projectile travels a quite little bit faster than the 45-70 one does.
FWIW Maybe you can BUY BOTH? Either will take down large game if correct ammo is used.
ALSO here's a thread where the same question was asked/replied to by many a while back. IIRC it has the ballistics of the big bore marlins within it somewhere.
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/444-marlin/82575-444-vs-45-70-a-9.html
IIRC the .444 projectile travels a quite little bit faster than the 45-70 one does.
FWIW Maybe you can BUY BOTH? Either will take down large game if correct ammo is used.
ALSO here's a thread where the same question was asked/replied to by many a while back. IIRC it has the ballistics of the big bore marlins within it somewhere.
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/444-marlin/82575-444-vs-45-70-a-9.html
Nothing wrong at all with Cast Bullets pushed to the Max or at subdued velocities with either cartridge, even though only one of them will do it efficiently.
A true winner is only ones opinion, as both have more pros, then cons.
A true winner is only ones opinion, as both have more pros, then cons.
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