I have a very basic question for those of you who are into ballistics and viable hunting loads. I own a T/C Hawken .45 cal rifle. I have restored it from a piece of junk into a very accurate round ball weapon. I shoot a .440 patched round ball, 128 grs. My desire is to get a lever action rifle chambered in 44-40, as well as a revolver in the same caliber. I have read most of the threads here, still have not seen any comparison of the capability of the 44-40 (for deer) vs. a .45 patched round ball. I would like to shoot both at deer and antelope; within reasonable ranges. Your thought would be appreciated.
Black Knight
44-40 vs. Hawken .45 Hunting Loads
A round ball in .45 caliber is sorta weak for deer no matter how you look at it. A TC Maxie Ball will improve its killing power considerably. The .44-40 is no power house either is you compare it to a .44 Mag. Still in a modern Marlin it can be loaded up quite a bit. The cases are still paper thin. It is still a good game killer at moderate ranges plus it is a repeater.
The .44-40 is a good handgun round. It probably performs better as a handgun round than as a rifle round meaning top end in a handgun, lower end in a rifle compared to other chamberings.
It all sounds like a lot of fun. Pursue it all and enjoy.
The .44-40 is a good handgun round. It probably performs better as a handgun round than as a rifle round meaning top end in a handgun, lower end in a rifle compared to other chamberings.
It all sounds like a lot of fun. Pursue it all and enjoy.
A round ball loses about 50% if its kinetic energy in the first 100 yards. Using 80 grains of good quality 2Fg powder and a .45 round ball you will get 1800 fps in a 30" barrel, whereas the same charge with a Maxi bullet will do about 1450, based on my chronograph tests.
In a 66" twist dedicated roundball gun 90 grains of 3Fg will give you close to 2000 fps from a 30" barrel and is a good killer to 100 yards. I personally don't see much difference between a Maxi in the. 45 and a .44-40, about the same payload and velocity. In either case you want soft bullets, about 1:30 tin/lead for hunting alloy, no harder than 8 BHN, and a bullet having a large meplat not less than 0.6 of the bullet diameter, loaded up sufficiently to ensure a striking velocity out where the deer is, of not less than 1150 fps. to ensure at least some bullet "riveting" or deformation if bones are struck. It takes about 1200 fps with 8 BHN alloy and a large meplat to get any mushrooming.
But I am of the opinion that bullet expansion isn't needed IF you have a large meplat to ensure good crush characteristics and enough bullet weight at sufficient velocity to ensure through and through penetration on raking shots. The blackpowder .44-40 load fairly well defined those performance parameters. The key to clean kills on game is shot placement and knowledge of animal anatomy.
The rear end of a deer is to eat and not to shoot...
In a 66" twist dedicated roundball gun 90 grains of 3Fg will give you close to 2000 fps from a 30" barrel and is a good killer to 100 yards. I personally don't see much difference between a Maxi in the. 45 and a .44-40, about the same payload and velocity. In either case you want soft bullets, about 1:30 tin/lead for hunting alloy, no harder than 8 BHN, and a bullet having a large meplat not less than 0.6 of the bullet diameter, loaded up sufficiently to ensure a striking velocity out where the deer is, of not less than 1150 fps. to ensure at least some bullet "riveting" or deformation if bones are struck. It takes about 1200 fps with 8 BHN alloy and a large meplat to get any mushrooming.
But I am of the opinion that bullet expansion isn't needed IF you have a large meplat to ensure good crush characteristics and enough bullet weight at sufficient velocity to ensure through and through penetration on raking shots. The blackpowder .44-40 load fairly well defined those performance parameters. The key to clean kills on game is shot placement and knowledge of animal anatomy.
The rear end of a deer is to eat and not to shoot...
I see you wizards have not heard of the Davenport Formula. If your shooting 80gr out of a 30 inch barrel, your wasting powder.
I use 74.5 grs out of my 42 inch barrel, which is a 100% burn @ 2033fps with a 45 cal patched round ball. Which will put the smack down on any deer here.
My flinter cant shoot as many as a 44-40 lever can, but it will go faster, and further. (figuring everyone is using holy black)
Forums - Traditional Muzzleloading Forum - Muzzleloader Flintlock Black Powder
Here is where you will find the Davenport Formula, for the max burn for your caliber and barrel.
NOT the most accurate, just a complete burn. A place to work backwards from to get accuracy
I use 74.5 grs out of my 42 inch barrel, which is a 100% burn @ 2033fps with a 45 cal patched round ball. Which will put the smack down on any deer here.
My flinter cant shoot as many as a 44-40 lever can, but it will go faster, and further. (figuring everyone is using holy black)
Forums - Traditional Muzzleloading Forum - Muzzleloader Flintlock Black Powder
Here is where you will find the Davenport Formula, for the max burn for your caliber and barrel.
NOT the most accurate, just a complete burn. A place to work backwards from to get accuracy
Have you chronograph data which validates your velocity claim? Over how many rounds, repeated over how many repetitions?
I would like to get some of your atomic black powder to use in my .44-40. Adiabatic expansion works in your favor with black, but your velocity claim with only 54.5 grains, even with Swiss seems more than a bit optimistic. Frankly, I don't believe your numbers without data and some proper calibration of the instrumentation using a good ballistic reference such as Eley Tenex out of your Winchester 52, or similar....
My data is based on Goex, which admittedly is not the best powder, but is representative of what most people can get.
Shot lots of deer with a .50 Hawken. Patched round ball, 186gr, 60gr FFG, DRT, every one of them. What's the max BP charge for a 44-40? Considerably less than what one could use effectively in a rifle barrel, given that standard .45 Colt load was 35gr. The old Walker Colt used 40gr. However, I don't care what barrel or load you use, I don't think you are going to get 2000fps out of a 44-40, so I'm not sure how it can be compared as in the statement "about the same payload and velocity". Unless I'm missing something.
Black Knight,
With the .44-40 one will likely get complete broadside penetration as Rowdy and others have experienced.
Pic of this harvest on page 10. Black powder and the bullet penetrated completely.:biggrin:
![Image]()
Vintage Hunting with the 1873
In it's day (and today) the .44 W.C.F. and .44-40 , although less powered than today's hotshot dude calibers, was used very successfully in America's game fields and the Model ‘73 Winchester so chambered provided nature’s bounty to many families.
In Winchester’s catalog of 1875, users reported on the wonderful performance of the .44 W.C.F. on game. Here are a few of their testimonials.
..."I have fully tested the late improved Winchester Rifle and take pleasure in stating that it is the best rifle I have ever used. I have killed a number of deer, at distances from one to two hundred yards and in every instance, the bullet passed clean through the body."
..."I killed at a full gallop, at about 100 yards distant, a very large buckwith a splendid set of antlers with the first shot. The bullet struck him in the shoulder, as he ran toward me, and after traversing the entire length of his body, tearing the lights and paunch into atoms in its course, it passed out behind through the thickest part of the ham."
..."The killing qualities, at large game, is all that could be desired, to the wonder and admiration of the guides and sportsmen who saw its working during my visit to the Adirondack woods last fall."
..."I can say for one, that I think the Winchester Model of 1873 is the best firearm now in use for hunting and sporting; they give the best satisfaction to every one that has used them here. James Gary and C.S. Martin have killed 17 bears and 100 deer since the first of September with Model 1873.
..."For a sporting rifle, I think the Winchester Rifle is excelled by none. I have killed antelope, deer, and elk, with my gun, at from 200 to 400 yards. I would not exchange it for any other rifle."
129 YEARS LATER IT‘S STILL PERFORMING THE SAME WAY as reported by Doc Toombs on the SASS Wire - January 11, 2002.
“I took 2 deer this year with a ‘73 short rifle clone in .44 W.C.F. My hunting partner took 3 deer with a Marlin in 44 magnum. We both using hand loaded cast bullets, mine weighed 200 grains, his 240 grain. His came out of the barrel at over 1,700 f.p.s., mine came out the barrel at 1,290. All deer were shot at under 100 yards.”
The results:
- all deer dropped within 50 yards
- no bullets were recovered (complete broadside penetration)
“There was NO difference on effectiveness between the two calibers. Of course I still believe the Magnum is a superior deer cartridge. Probably the result of too many years of reading gun magazines.”
“But the reward of using a 73 in 44wcf with original velocity cartridges is immeasurable.”
Yes indeed! :biggrin:
w30wcf
With the .44-40 one will likely get complete broadside penetration as Rowdy and others have experienced.
Pic of this harvest on page 10. Black powder and the bullet penetrated completely.:biggrin:
Vintage Hunting with the 1873
In it's day (and today) the .44 W.C.F. and .44-40 , although less powered than today's hotshot dude calibers, was used very successfully in America's game fields and the Model ‘73 Winchester so chambered provided nature’s bounty to many families.
In Winchester’s catalog of 1875, users reported on the wonderful performance of the .44 W.C.F. on game. Here are a few of their testimonials.
..."I have fully tested the late improved Winchester Rifle and take pleasure in stating that it is the best rifle I have ever used. I have killed a number of deer, at distances from one to two hundred yards and in every instance, the bullet passed clean through the body."
..."I killed at a full gallop, at about 100 yards distant, a very large buckwith a splendid set of antlers with the first shot. The bullet struck him in the shoulder, as he ran toward me, and after traversing the entire length of his body, tearing the lights and paunch into atoms in its course, it passed out behind through the thickest part of the ham."
..."The killing qualities, at large game, is all that could be desired, to the wonder and admiration of the guides and sportsmen who saw its working during my visit to the Adirondack woods last fall."
..."I can say for one, that I think the Winchester Model of 1873 is the best firearm now in use for hunting and sporting; they give the best satisfaction to every one that has used them here. James Gary and C.S. Martin have killed 17 bears and 100 deer since the first of September with Model 1873.
..."For a sporting rifle, I think the Winchester Rifle is excelled by none. I have killed antelope, deer, and elk, with my gun, at from 200 to 400 yards. I would not exchange it for any other rifle."
129 YEARS LATER IT‘S STILL PERFORMING THE SAME WAY as reported by Doc Toombs on the SASS Wire - January 11, 2002.
“I took 2 deer this year with a ‘73 short rifle clone in .44 W.C.F. My hunting partner took 3 deer with a Marlin in 44 magnum. We both using hand loaded cast bullets, mine weighed 200 grains, his 240 grain. His came out of the barrel at over 1,700 f.p.s., mine came out the barrel at 1,290. All deer were shot at under 100 yards.”
The results:
- all deer dropped within 50 yards
- no bullets were recovered (complete broadside penetration)
“There was NO difference on effectiveness between the two calibers. Of course I still believe the Magnum is a superior deer cartridge. Probably the result of too many years of reading gun magazines.”
“But the reward of using a 73 in 44wcf with original velocity cartridges is immeasurable.”
Yes indeed! :biggrin:
w30wcf
These comments are exactly what I wanted to see. I suspected that the 44-40 would hold its' own. Today we are obcessed with magnum this and that, when in fact, old school is still good. For years I tried to get my son to see the benefit of dropping from a 30-06, or .270 rifle to a .243. He is just now getting it. Funny how a little age and arthitis of the shoulders will do that ! I have the muzzleloader Hawken, and have sold or given away everything else. Now it is time to replace the rifles with something basic and fun. Years ago I saw a guy in SD hunt everything with a Model 94, and he did well. The idea of a 44-40 has captured my imagination. So has the Win 1873.
Pard, have to admit, I've never shot my muzzle loader (a Thompson Center White Mountain Carbine in .50 cal) over a chronograph.
I have however taken a couple of mule deer with it! Was most impressed by the effectiveness of a half inch dia chunk of soft lead... And when I started messing with the .45/70, I noted that there was a fair bit of similarity there.
Never have used a .44-40 or a .45 muzzle loader, so this is as far as I care to dip into this conversation! :biggrin:
Regards, Guy
I have however taken a couple of mule deer with it! Was most impressed by the effectiveness of a half inch dia chunk of soft lead... And when I started messing with the .45/70, I noted that there was a fair bit of similarity there.
Never have used a .44-40 or a .45 muzzle loader, so this is as far as I care to dip into this conversation! :biggrin:
Regards, Guy
The .45 is a fine caliber for hunting deer. You can get it fairly flat shooting to 100 yards without beating yourself to death. Many of the original rifles used to wipe out the deer herd were much smaller. I think the current min is .38 in Ohio so you are way above that. Pick and choose your shots and with good placement I see no reason to back down from a 100 yard shot if you have the ability to place a ball in the boiler room at that distance. Let us see pics of your restoration of that TC.
The only problem with the 44-40 is getting a rifle and pistol that will give good results with the same loads if that is what you are wanting to do. In that case you will be limited to the loading for the weakest action. I am a fan of hitting them as hard as I can with the gun I am using. I am not sure how easy it would be to get a 44-40 in a Marlin compared to a 44 Mag or 45 Colt if you are wanting a Marlin rifle ( and who doesn't
? ). Deer and antelope are killed every year with bows so I feel you could do it with the 44-40 too. I do think the TC will have a flatter trajectory that the 44-40 but if you put in the range time that will not be a problem. I worked with a guy that used his 44-40 for deer here in Indiana and he had no problem killing them.
The only problem with the 44-40 is getting a rifle and pistol that will give good results with the same loads if that is what you are wanting to do. In that case you will be limited to the loading for the weakest action. I am a fan of hitting them as hard as I can with the gun I am using. I am not sure how easy it would be to get a 44-40 in a Marlin compared to a 44 Mag or 45 Colt if you are wanting a Marlin rifle ( and who doesn't
? ). Deer and antelope are killed every year with bows so I feel you could do it with the 44-40 too. I do think the TC will have a flatter trajectory that the 44-40 but if you put in the range time that will not be a problem. I worked with a guy that used his 44-40 for deer here in Indiana and he had no problem killing them.
The 44 Winchester has been deemed the step child for many years. People push it aside simply because they don't understand it. In 1873 chambered in the Winchester 73" it was the state of the art rifle at the time......one hell of an "assault rifle". Killed many deer, people and many other critters.
just like the 45-70 and 45 Colt it can be loaded beyond SAAMI specs for strong action firearms. People don't yell about the 45 Colt or the 45-70 high power loads but cry like a baby when someone steps up the 44 Winchester.
Back in 1903 the 44 Winchester was loaded up to 22,000 PSI and produced one hell of a punch. Modern manufactures could produce accurate loads but for some reason won't......but yet they will manufacture high power 45 Colt and 45-70 cartridges but not the 44 Winchester.
Like Outpost, but not gunsmithed, I have a 44 Winchester combo too:
Marlin 1849 Cowboy
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Uberti 44 Magnum
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At some point I would love to have them worked over by a Smith but they are good enough like they are.
Rifle
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Revolver
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A 4" group is good enough in the real world at a given distance!
yes, they are different loads but both work fine with 200gr factory JSP High Velocity Loads.
I am no movie maker and these videos are for edumecational purposes only, and used mostly to test loads from this forum and from myself.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz3zCgNDEhrENjOeLTcXxcbv
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz3zCgNDEhrENjOeLTcXxcbv" target="_blank">
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz3zCgNDEhrENjOeLTcXxcbv" target="_blank">
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz3zCgNDEhrENjOeLTcXxcbv" target="_blank">
just like the 45-70 and 45 Colt it can be loaded beyond SAAMI specs for strong action firearms. People don't yell about the 45 Colt or the 45-70 high power loads but cry like a baby when someone steps up the 44 Winchester.
Back in 1903 the 44 Winchester was loaded up to 22,000 PSI and produced one hell of a punch. Modern manufactures could produce accurate loads but for some reason won't......but yet they will manufacture high power 45 Colt and 45-70 cartridges but not the 44 Winchester.
Like Outpost, but not gunsmithed, I have a 44 Winchester combo too:
Marlin 1849 Cowboy
Uberti 44 Magnum
At some point I would love to have them worked over by a Smith but they are good enough like they are.
Rifle
Revolver
A 4" group is good enough in the real world at a given distance!
yes, they are different loads but both work fine with 200gr factory JSP High Velocity Loads.
I am no movie maker and these videos are for edumecational purposes only, and used mostly to test loads from this forum and from myself.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz3zCgNDEhrENjOeLTcXxcbv
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz3zCgNDEhrENjOeLTcXxcbv" target="_blank">
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz3zCgNDEhrENjOeLTcXxcbv" target="_blank">
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9XZjWb-Avz3zCgNDEhrENjOeLTcXxcbv" target="_blank">
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