I shot some of the Berry's plated bullets that measured a very tight .429 and at low velocity (1000fps) they shot very good 50 yard groups. Like one ragged hole. But when loaded to over 1200fps they stripped the bore and were all over the place. I have some Magtech that measure .431 and those shot great at any speed from that rifle. So yes, the diameter is important on the Micro-Groove rifling.

I sold that gun and bought a new one with Ballard rifling and the bullet diameter is far less important.

 

I forgot to mention this isn't a marlin but i needed some quick info so i could buy these while they were on sale so asked here. Normal rifling so wont have to worry about the micro groove. These are actually Nosler .429 JHP i wont mess with plated bullets anymore.

 

Shoot em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I looked in my Speer book and they listed .430 for the lead bullets and .429 for the jacketed.

The Hornady book as you indicated, listed .430 for their jacketed bullets.

For years I have been shooting cast bullets of .431 and this coming Spring/Summer will be testing .432 cast bullets.

Personally I'd not over think the tiny difference in the jacketed bullets and as said, "shoot em."

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

SAAMI 44 Mag specs are 0.429” for handguns and 0.431” for rifles.
Before I discovered this I had a heck of a time finding a load that worked well in both.

Edited for correction... thanks, Gohon

 

That SAAMI rifle spec you speak of is for a micro-grove barrel. It's not for Ballard type rifling.
LG

 

The closer the bullet is to your bore size the better. What rifle are you shooting?

 

Handi rifle. It shoots very well with .430 Hornady but they are pricey and i found the Noslers for half the price.

 

I ordered some of both .429", and .430" diameter Hornady bullets, and shot them out of my 1894s 44 mag I couldn't tell any difference in accuracy, fouling, or anything. My bore slugs at .4305"

 

Good cast bullets will flat get er done and at lessor cost. As per closer to bore size being better, that may be true with "J" bullets but not with cast.

Took two deer, dead where they stood, with a Wide Flat Nose cast this past Fall. One at 95 - 100yds. and the other, a nice buck at closer to 50yds.

Now with a new mold and a new .432 sizing die to test, I'll be trying for tighter groups this coming Spring/Summer.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

If its one of the Marlin made Handi-Rifles IIRC it has the Micro-Groove barrel and may also be oversized on the bore. Thats just going on my shakey memory here. You may want to buy the rifle first then slug the bore before you spend a bunch of money on the bullets. But if you have another 44 the bullets may work in that gun anyway if they don't work in the rifle.

I didn't catch that you already have the rifle. Sorry about that. But i would slug the bore or just buy one box and give them a try. And like the other poster suggested try some hard cast lead. You may be pleased with how they shoot.

 

SAAMI 44 Mag specs are 0.429” for handguns and 0.430” for rifles.

SAAMI specs for a 44 mag rifle is .431 inch.

 

SAAMI specs for a 44 mag rifle is .431 inch.

View attachment 616370

See my above post-That is for a 12 grove bore....Not Ballard type
LG

 

.429",.4295",.430" jacketed bullets all shoot very well in my two 1894's. Both are 6 groove Ballard. Never saw even the slightest difference. I shoot 240 grain Noslers for the low price and excellent performance on game. Soft points for hunting and JHP's for home defense. Sometimes you can catch them on sale for 52 or 53 dollars per 250.




Rob

 

I have had very good success with the accuracy from jacketed bullets from my Microgroove Marlins. That's my .357. 44 mag, and 45-70. I have had to try various sized cast bullets to get reasonable accuracy.

My 1895 in 45-70 needs a cast bullet diameter of at least 0.4595 and my 1894 in 44 mag likes its cast bullets at 0.432 for best results.
Both shoot out of the box jacketed bullets accurately.

 

These are some tests on 44 bullets i recently did http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/ammunition-test-results/485545-444-44mag-bullet-tests.html The 240gr nosler HP was not run in this test. I did run it thru the exact same test some years back looking for a 44 Mag rifle hunting bullet. Both the Nosler HP and SP have pure lead cores, and penetrate less than other brands. The 240gr Nosler JHP came apart early on, and would not be my choice for a big game bullet out of a 44 rifle. They should be fine for load development, but would get a standard SP of Winchester HSP for hunting, thou if you really want a 240gr HP the Hornady XTP should hold up.

Now what is interesting, is with the same bullet, the 44 mag rifle generally out performs the 444 for both pentration and expansion. Bullet choice is critcal in the 444, as the velocity of the 444 exceeds the design parimeters of many bullets.

 

These are some tests on 44 bullets i recently did http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/ammunition-test-results/485545-444-44mag-bullet-tests.html The 240gr nosler HP was not run in this test. I did run it thru the exact same test some years back looking for a 44 Mag rifle hunting bullet. Both the Nosler HP and SP have pure lead cores, and penetrate less than other brands. The 240gr Nosler JHP came apart early on, and would not be my choice for a big game bullet out of a 44 rifle. They should be fine for load development, but would get a standard SP of Winchester HSP for hunting, thou if you really want a 240gr HP the Hornady XTP should hold up.

Now what is interesting, is with the same bullet, the 44 mag rifle generally out performs the 444 for both pentration and expansion. Bullet choice is critcal in the 444, as the velocity of the 444 exceeds the design parimeters of many bullets.

Greymustang,
Here is a pic of 240gr JSP Nosler's shot out of my 1894 at about 50yds.. if I remember correctly. The one on the right is the only one I have ever found that was intact. Most are turned almost inside out like the left bullet or fragmented when shot into wet phone books. I still like to load um and shoot um though,, :tee:

 

That SAAMI rifle spec you speak of is for a micro-grove barrel. It's not for Ballard type rifling.LG

You have a source for that?...Would love to read it. Doesn't matter if the barrel is Ballard or Microgroove if the lead bullet is smaller or the same diameter as the groove diameter whether 6 grooves or 12 grooves, your going to have problems. Go here SAAMI and click on "cartridge and chamber drawinngs", then click on "rifle" which is a PDF, then scroll down to page 351. I see no separate specs for two different rifle barrels in 44 magnum. Even with Ballard rifling you will get better performance with a cast bullet that is .002-.003 over groove diameter.

 

PLZ reread the specs in the picture of my post(#14)where I quoted your post, it says '12 grooves'. Ballard rifling is not, 12 grooves.
.002-.003 over groove dia is a good way to lead a bore. Most folks going for accuracy with lead bullets will shoot groove dia to maybe + .001.

LG

 

When I look at that drawing, i see 12 groves referring to chamber dimensions, not barrel dimensions.

If you look closely at the chamber drawing, there is a little triangle associated with some of the dimensions. That triangle references those dimensions to a 12 grove barrel. There is no reference for the barrel grove diameter. It is only .431.

 

On 'blue-line' drawings like above, the triangle indicates a reference is all. The reference, is placed near the location for where it is intended.
There are no 12 grooves in the chamber. Only in the bore.
LG

 

The OP was inquiring about jacketed bullet selection. He said "other than cast".




Rob

 

Yes he did-MG bbl works best with jacketed bullets when push'n hard on FPS.
LG

 

.

One thing that you Guys need to understand. The difference in cut rifling and Micro-Groove rifling is caused by the method used to apply the rifling.
Cut rifling is just that, it's cut by removing metal one at a time with a sharp scraper or hook cutter to make the grooves. Micro-Groove is applied by forcing a rifling broach or button thru the polished bore. The broach engraves the rifling in the bore as it passes thru.....all the lands and grooves are formed in one pass. Whereas the Cut or Ballard rifling required one pass for each groove. The savings in time and money is great (about one hour to cut the rifling compared to just one quick pass with a rifling broach).

So why are Micro-groove barrels larger than Ballard cut? The extreme pressure applied by the Micro-groove Broach which engraves the rifling in the bore also expands the bore which does not "spring back" to original size. Therefore the Micro-groove barrel has a bore size that is .001 to .002 larger than a barrel with the cut rifling.

There is a myth going around that Micro-groove barrels will not shoot cast bullets well. Obviously, my rifles never heard that because the Micro-groove barrels have a slight edge in accuracy over the cut or Ballard barrels. The Micro-groove barrel is more accurate but only if the cast bullet fits the barrel properly. Other benefits of Micro-groove is easier cleaning, and less bullet distortion in the barrel which contributes to better accuracy.

.

 

Broach rifling is very common in higher end blls. The broach is pulled through the bore, from breech to muzzle.
Micro-groove was faster to cut and finish.
IF, MG was that accurate-Why did Marlin go back to Ballard then?
LG

 

A 0.001" difference in diameter of a .44/.444 bullet is minimal and it may or may not make any difference depending on load and the individual characteristics of your barrel. I would be amazed if you couldn't find .429" bullets that shot better than some .430" bullets in your rifle. I would be equally amazed if you couldn't find .430" bullets that shot better than some .429" bullets in your rifle. I suggest you try some of both diameter and simply settle on your best performing bullets and loads.

 

PLZ reread the specs in the picture of my post(#14)where I quoted your post, it says '12 grooves'. Ballard rifling is not, 12 grooves.
.002-.003 over groove dia is a good way to lead a bore. Most folks going for accuracy with lead bullets will shoot groove dia to maybe + .001.

Lumpy, I don't need to reread the diagram you posted because it is a copy of the one I posted. Answer this...if the reason the SAAMI spect for the 44 mag in a rifle is at .431 inch because of microgroove rifling, then why didn't SAAMI spec all the other calibers with microgroove to a larger groove diameter. The 444, 44 mag, 30-30, 357 mag, 45-70, 32-20, 41 mag, and 35 Rem were all microgroove. The number of grooves depended on their testing...some had 16 grooves, some were 12 groove, and at one time the 45-70 only had 8 grooves. The SAAMI specs for all of the calibers I mentioned were not changed but the 44 mag was set at .4315 inch right off the line and has remained so. When Marlin caved in and changed to Ballard rifling because of the cowboy shooting crowd they did so for only certain calibers. Some calibers such as the 35 Rem, 30-30, 32-20, and 41 mag remained microgroove.

As I said before if you can point to a source that says the 44 mag rifle groove diameter was changed to .429 I really would like to read it.

I don't know where you're getting ".002-.003 over groove dia is a good way to lead a bore". Just the opposite in mine and most other cast shooters experience. If you are getting barrel leading with casts that are .002-.003 over groove diameter then you loading beyond the pressure limits of your casts. A good 95% of those that are getting leading in their barrels shooting cast is due to casts bullets that are not properly sized to barrel groove diameter which calls for .002-.003 over groove diameter. A lot of cast shooters are tickled pink when their molds drop over sized casts because they can shoot them as dropped from the mold. If I had a 44 mag and it had Ballard rifling at .429 inch I would still make my casts at .431-.432 diameter. With factory jacketed bullets such as the OP is asking about I wouldn't worry about bullet size.

Once again...if you can, please point me to a source that says Ballard rifles are now specked at .429 for the 44 mag. I'm not saying that is not the case but until I can see/read a qualified source then SAAMI is the rule.

Rob, you are correct and to that end and to the OP...either .429 or .430 diameter jacketed bullets will shoot just fine in your gun. Just remember...that is jacketed bullets, not copper coated bullets.

 

SAAMI doesn't follow logic sometimes, and this is one of those cases.
My Ballard rifled bbl on my M/94 .44 mag, CL is 'tighter' than my 1981 .44 mag, MG carbine is. I'll see if I can find my notes from when I 'slugged' the bore on both.
Other than NRA Bullseye, the most I shoot lead bullets in is BPCR Comps. with a Shiloh #1, cal .45-90
I have lost count of how many times I've a seen a newer shooter 'lead-out' their bbl as they shot the COF.
99% of the shooters were using 'oversize' bullets at .003+ over groove dia.
When I gave them some of my bullets to load and try(shot as cast, with .4585 dia)the leading stopped.
FWIW: I shoot 240gn, Bear Creek moly-coated, .430 dia through BOTH of the above .44's with no issues and see very fine accuracy when loaded with 6.5gn of Unique.
LG

 

And just to clarify,modern day Ballard rifled Marlins are also button rifled,same as microgroove. Broach cut rifling went out in the 1940's and all the manufacturers changed over to button rifling,for cost saving and decreased machine time per barrel. I don't know specifically when Marlin switched over,but it's a sure bet all the modern 1894's starting with the .44 Mag in New Haven 1969 and moving to North Haven were all button rifled.

Some custom barrel makers still broach rifle because customers want it and are willing to pay. They claim accuracy advantages because of less molecular stress by not pulling a button and displacing metal. Who knows? Records have been set by shooters using button rifled and hammer forged barrels. Manufacturer care and expertise count more than method.



Rob

 

I can tell you for a FACT, that the 2017 M1894 .44mag I have, with Ballard 6-groove rifling has a 0.431" groove depth barrel.

It also isn't terribly accurate due to shots walking after 2-shots. But, if groups are limited to two rounds, they're usually "snake eyes".
My .431" Lyman/Keith 255gr SWC feed fine and shoot as good a Hornady 0.430" XTP, and a bit better than the Nosler 240 JSP.
I DO LIKE THE Nosler, though...
I do adore the little 1894. Looks MUCH better than the one I had circa 1980, made in the '70's.
Ive heard that some .357mags have escaped IILION lately... I might have to have one if it looks like my .44...!

 

Grenadier's comment about one of the dia. shooting better then the other may well be very valid.

Some of the highly accurate and pricy .22 rimfire Lapua ammo comes in two very slightly different bullet diameters.

And testing a broad range of ammo both target/match and typical off the shield types from a very accurate Clark Custom Walther barreled 77/22, I did test that ammo and yes, there was a difference in group size.

In another barrel, the one that shot the slightly larger group may well shoot the smallest group.

Just proves once again that each rifle is many times a rule unto itself and only testing will allow the rifle to tell you what it likes.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

.

Well said, CODC

You are correct, profound statements about rifles in general cannot be accurately made based on a sample of one. More and more often I get a rifle that is ignorant of "common knowledge" that does not fit the pattern as described by the "experts".

 

With jacketed bullets, my 44 Magnum Cowboy 1894 is very accurate. I found I have to use .433 lead bullets, even with Ballard rifling. Dardas Bullets has them.

 

If the price is good, I really think the .429 is a good gamble. All of my .44s shoot .429 jacked bullets well enough. My rifles tighten up a bit with .430, but with handguns the difference is minor to non-existent - at least when I am shooting them.

I don't shoot jacked bullets that often any more. With cast bullets it's a different story. I can get by with .430 but .431 is better.

But in the end, you just won't know until you try it. They all have a personality of their own.

 

.

We can read about, and hear others swear by the measurements of one or two rifles and applying that to all 44 Mags. According to comment on this thread the groove diameter of Marlin barrels vary from .429 up to .432 and in measuring one to two dozen rifles over the years they are all correct. One can not go by what other rifles measure. Check your rifle with a highly accurate micrometer....and check it yourself or have it done by a competent gunsmith..

My 44 Mag with a Micro-Groove barrel has a .430 groove diameter. It likes .430 to .431 cast bullets. Bullets sized to .433 or larger will in fact lead the barrel....in my rifle, although they may shoot great in your rifle. Winchester Collectors have a saying that applies to Marlin 44 Mags......."Never say never".