btt-nosler

 

Interesting stuff there Reflex. I think a lot of us with hunting rifles are very interested in expansion and penetration of the various bullets & loads.

You've got one heck of a pair of rifles there. Suitable for pretty much anything! Thanks for posting the results. You took that big buff with the big bore Marlin didn't you?

Regards, Guy

 

Hey Guy. I used the .450 Marlin on the buff. I did all of this testing before it went to Brockmans for the mag tube and got the pistol grip frame and XLR stocks. I tested the ammo very thoroughly before going after the water buff with it. I used the 420gr Crater Lite on the buff. There is actualy some of it cooking on the stove right now. ;D reflex264

 

btt

 

reflex264

Nicely done! Good stuff for sure.

JD338

 

btt CR

 

.416 Rigby/.450 Marlin Comparison

It will take a while to get all the data here. It was fun.

Test overview from .416 vs. .450 5/17/07

In this test I decided to use the toughest media I know of which is dry vinyl coated paper. It will generally destroy bullets and penetration is very limited. The two rifles are as different as they can possibly be. The .450 marlin guide gun is a lightweight short barreled lever action. The .416 Rigby a Ruger #1 Tropical SS/ laminate. Typically the .416 makes its living by generating around 5000flbs of muzzle energy.
First off many would consider this a David and Goliath test but nothing could be farther from the truth. The fact of the matter is when fired into dampened media the .458 Nosler 300gr PP generally out penetrates bullets that weigh more than it does even when fired at slower speeds. This has been proven over and over. In my previous testing I discovered that as media tensile strength rises the bullets of similar construction generating more kinetic energy did have an advantage so to my way of thinking pitting a rifle generating around 3000flbs against one generating around 5000ftlbs would help to establish if the 300gr Nosler was truly as good as it acted in softer medias.
The method used for determining penetration and wound channel score was as follows. After the shot the media was examined to determine the position of the bullet and that stack of media would be removed to that point and placed back flat on the surface of the ballistic buffalo and measured. The wound channel observations were made in layers to determine how quick expansion started, peaked and subsided. Since the dry media wouldn't hold the shape of the wound channel like the damp media no true wound volume could be established but reason able description of the damage could be easily observed.
The bullets were removed, measured and weighed. General observations were made on the condition of the bullets. All of the results are free from bias.



Bullet test 5/17/07
.416 Rigby vs. .450 Marlin in dry vinyl coat media

.458 Nosler PP 300gr

Velocity: 2100fps
Energy: 2938flbs
Penetration: 5.00"�
Weight: before shot 300grs
After shot 220.00grs
Expanded diameter: .631"�

.416 Barnes X 300gr

Velocity: 2650fps
Energy: 4679flbs
Penetration: 5.25"�
Weight: before shot 300grs
After shot 299.4grs
Expanded diameter: .849"�

.416 Barnes X 350gr

Velocity: 2600fps
Energy: 5254flbs
Penetration: 6.0"�
Weight: before shot 349.4grs
After shot 349.0grs
Expanded diameter: .807"�

.416 Nosler partition

Velocity: 2450fps
Energy: 5332flbs
Penetration: 7.75"�
Weight: before shot 400grs
After shot 329.40grs
Expanded diameter: .784"�


Test Results

1. The 300gr .458 Nosler fired at 2100fps

The bullet exhibited expansion within 1.5"� of entering the media. The immediate wound channel was large and this bullet removed the second largest amount of media from its path. The expansion was full by 2.5"� of travel in the media where it left the largest diameter hole of all the bullets tested which was approximately 2.75" . At this point it appeared to loose its petals and continued on leaving a decent wound channel probably because of the very flat nose it had with out the petals. This bullet retained the least amount of its original weight but this didn't seem to affect its ability to penetrate.

2. The 300gr .416 Barnes X fired at 2650fps

The bullet exhibited expansion 2"� after entering the media. The bullet appeared to reach full expansion instantly. The wound channel was approximately the same size to slightly larger than the expanded bullet. It appeared more to cut the media than to explode it. The petals all remained attached to the bullet. This bullet retained over 99% of its original weight.

3. The 350gr .416 Barnes X fired at 2600fps

The bullet exhibited expansion 2"� after entering the media. The bullet appeared to reach full expansion immediately. The wound channel was the 3rd largest and did exhibit some explosive reaction to the media at one point leaving a 1.25"� diameter path. The bullet possibly because of the amount of energy it struck the target with generated the second largest reaction from the holder. This bullet retained over 99% of its original weight.

4. The 400gr .416 Nosler Partition

The bullet exhibited expansion within 1.5"� of its entrance into the media. The wound channel was very large and tubular as the bullet removed media the whole length of its penetration exhibiting tremendous trauma to the media and holder. Upon impact the whole ballistic buff reacted. This bullet generated the greatest amount of kinetic energy. Upon removal it was discovered that great pressure from impacting the hard media had caused the bullet to squat slightly at the partition. This bullet penetrated the farthest and did the most damage. The bullet retained 82.4% of its original weight.

the two cartridges

the two rifles

the cartridges and bullets

me with the 450

me with the .416

If this forum is still active.





Quote:

I understand your rationale for the comparison, especially the penetration factors of all load comparisons. The question in my mind is, how would the increased levels in energy (when comparing the .416 Rigby), even while penetrating without significant gains, display in a ballistic gel block to show "shock" distribution patterns from both loads. You took a lot a time in doing your homework, it does pay-off when making a decision on anything, but I bet if the decision came down to a hunt on brown bear or something caparable - it would be the .416 Rigby.

 

I think Reflex had hunters carry his ammo & .450 rifle afield for big game, including grizz or Alaskan brown bear. Memory could fail me on that though. Perhaps he'll come back to this thread.

'Flex built a fair bit of ammo - looked into doing it commercially. I think we're all worse off because his plans to build and market big bore Marlin ammo didn't mature.

I'd have no problem carrying a big bore Marlin, .450 or .45/70, for anything in North America - within reasonable range. I'm particularly enamored of the 425 gr Piledriver Junior from Beartooth bullets, at about 1900 - 1950 fps. Heck of a load.

FWIW, Guy

 

Hey oldfordjr. First off let me explain the reasoning behind this test. I was involved in developing ammunition for use on big animals. First and formost for my own ammunition. Many hunters were involved in the testing both in the field and in the labs. The goal was to have a compact rifle capible of delivering adequate performance to cleanly take on animals such as brown bears, African lions, water buffalo, cape buffalo and such like. Setting up tests and then using them in the field so we could compare the results in media to results on animals is the only way to arrive at a real reference point. The reason we didn't use gel was simply that we couldn't simulate the actual toughness of a animal such as a cape buffalo or water buffalo. The disturbed are in the paper media is always larger with the Rigby. The point ended up being that the .450 was capible of killing these critters just fine without as many foot pounds. The rate of fire with the .450 in someone that pratices hands has to be seen to be believed. In that catagory 3 shots from a .416 bolt gun vs 7 from the .450 after mods without a reload has to factor in. Did it work? Water buffalo, cape buffalo, nemerous bear, and even African Lion met their demise at the report of the .450 and .45-70. Here is the .450 after mods and the water buff I used it on:

Notice the blood shot out but the huge permanant wound channel. The guide said he had never seen on stopped that fast.

 

Hey Reflex,

Great work.

Later, Mark

 

btt levi

 

Interesting stuff for sure, Reflex. Recently acquired a .450M and excited about what it is capable of. Thanks for your research & the refresh bump.

 

I know that I'm very fond of my 1895M's. Thanks for the detail and homework. Really like your rifle!


1895gunner

 

So---based on your tests---in real life situations--on real wildlife----a .450 should be a capable round for white tails ? :ahhhhh:

Steve