I have read-do not shoot me for saying that-a lot of people think that 300 grain hollow point bullets are not good for the 45/70 due to it's tendency to fragment. I have some, and intended to use them, and as I do not know squat about cast bullets, leading, and so forth, I would like to get some opinions. I want to have as little meat damage as possible, and I want to shoot at targets with what I hunt with, so I would really appreciate some input.
bambi shooter
The 300 grain Remington bullet will be more than enough to take a deer, but it will also damage a pretty good amount of meat. They will expand well and do what they are designed to do. I wouldn't expect too much fragmenting if you keep the velocity under 1800fps. If you push it much beyond that, it should make a lot of inedible venison hamburger.
Keith
Keith
bambi shooter.....I use a 300gr Hornady at 1600fps in my 45-70 and they DRT. You do not need blistering speed with a 300gr bullet when hunting deer. You do need to be familiar with your rifle's trajectory if the distances stretch out a ways.
Lots of deer found their way to the dinner table courtesy black powder rounds like the 32-40 and 38-55. Both using much lighter bullets than the 45-70 at 1250fps. You'll do fine with a 300gr bullet.
Lots of deer found their way to the dinner table courtesy black powder rounds like the 32-40 and 38-55. Both using much lighter bullets than the 45-70 at 1250fps. You'll do fine with a 300gr bullet.
I have used both the Remington and Sierra 300 gr JHP.
They do well at the slower speeds but if pushed hard they become explosive and will ruin a lot of meat.
More like a large caliber varmint bullet IMHO if driven hard.
Tom
They do well at the slower speeds but if pushed hard they become explosive and will ruin a lot of meat.
More like a large caliber varmint bullet IMHO if driven hard.
Tom
Bambi shooter...
I have taken three deer with my 45/70 and Remmy 300gr hp. The load I used produced right at 2400fps over my chrony 10ft from the muzzle using H4198. (22" bbl, lapped). Lapping can be amazing, BTW. This load was 2 grains under max and showed no px signs.
Anyway, as mentioned by others in this thread, this bullet, IMO, is a little lightly constructed for deer at higher velocities. The wounds are devastating with the projo acting like a tiny HE round. Two of the three were broadside rib shots, one standing and DRT the other at a full-tilt run. In neither case did the bullet exit intact. In fact, on the runner (larger adult doe @ ~40yds) there were several smaller exit wounds on the off side. The third and final deer was also running.....through a thick stand of cedar trees where I was actually, um...pooping. She came up very fast and without even enough time pull up my drawers I acquired her in the optic and fired. She piled up at the shot. The postmortum revealed the bullet had struck her at the rear of the rib cage in the spine. It was probably the most spectacular wound I've seen inflicted on a deer by anything smaller than an 18-wheeler. Secondary frag from the spine as well as bullet fragments destroyed way too much meat to be acceptable.
All three of these deer were taken in the same season and I no longer use this load for deer. If you can find some, the Remmy 405gr would probably be a better choice. Or you could keep velocities down to a more reasonable level.
FWIW, I used 405remmys in my 458 SOCOM for deer this year. At just over 1600 fps at the muzzle they hit hard and destroy very little meat. Not "eat right up to the hole" little, but much less than even my 25/06. I shot a nice 8-pointer on opening morning with this load at about 30yds. He was looking directly at me so the bullet travelled the length of the body. It was recovered in the intestines with the core separated from the jacket, but still weighing 402grains between the two pieces.
Good luck
I have taken three deer with my 45/70 and Remmy 300gr hp. The load I used produced right at 2400fps over my chrony 10ft from the muzzle using H4198. (22" bbl, lapped). Lapping can be amazing, BTW. This load was 2 grains under max and showed no px signs.
Anyway, as mentioned by others in this thread, this bullet, IMO, is a little lightly constructed for deer at higher velocities. The wounds are devastating with the projo acting like a tiny HE round. Two of the three were broadside rib shots, one standing and DRT the other at a full-tilt run. In neither case did the bullet exit intact. In fact, on the runner (larger adult doe @ ~40yds) there were several smaller exit wounds on the off side. The third and final deer was also running.....through a thick stand of cedar trees where I was actually, um...pooping. She came up very fast and without even enough time pull up my drawers I acquired her in the optic and fired. She piled up at the shot. The postmortum revealed the bullet had struck her at the rear of the rib cage in the spine. It was probably the most spectacular wound I've seen inflicted on a deer by anything smaller than an 18-wheeler. Secondary frag from the spine as well as bullet fragments destroyed way too much meat to be acceptable.
All three of these deer were taken in the same season and I no longer use this load for deer. If you can find some, the Remmy 405gr would probably be a better choice. Or you could keep velocities down to a more reasonable level.
FWIW, I used 405remmys in my 458 SOCOM for deer this year. At just over 1600 fps at the muzzle they hit hard and destroy very little meat. Not "eat right up to the hole" little, but much less than even my 25/06. I shot a nice 8-pointer on opening morning with this load at about 30yds. He was looking directly at me so the bullet travelled the length of the body. It was recovered in the intestines with the core separated from the jacket, but still weighing 402grains between the two pieces.
Good luck
I have used this bullet and a 2200fps load with it for quite a few years. I have yet to see it explode or blow a ham or shoulder up. Shoot for the ribs, and you will be fine. There must be an instance where it damages meat, but in 20 or so deer, I have yet to see it. This also goes for Hornady.
Bambi Shooter,
You mention that you know little about cast bullets, but I'm not clear if that means you don't want to go there or just have no experence.
Beyond that, the first comment I'd make is unless using a bullet jacketed or cast of very high integrity hold way back on the velocity.
My first cast bullet critter was taken with a Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet with a muzzle velocity of just over 2300fps. Range about 100yds.
The bullet didn't blow up as some questionable jacketed or cast might, but the wound channel was way beyond anything I had expected. Huge. Not mangled meat and bone, it was simply gone, blown out the exit hole. Talk about being surprised, that would be a huge understatement.
Currently I use a 465gr WFN at 1650fps and it is fantastic on deer and elk.
I joined the 45/70 ranks for one reason, to shoot and hunt with my own cast bullets, but were I to use jacketed bullets, not only would it be wise to keep the velocity well below 2000fps, but I'd only use "J" bullets with proven integrity.
Meat in the freezer is my reason for hunting and I don't like blowing it up.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
You mention that you know little about cast bullets, but I'm not clear if that means you don't want to go there or just have no experence.
Beyond that, the first comment I'd make is unless using a bullet jacketed or cast of very high integrity hold way back on the velocity.
My first cast bullet critter was taken with a Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet with a muzzle velocity of just over 2300fps. Range about 100yds.
The bullet didn't blow up as some questionable jacketed or cast might, but the wound channel was way beyond anything I had expected. Huge. Not mangled meat and bone, it was simply gone, blown out the exit hole. Talk about being surprised, that would be a huge understatement.
Currently I use a 465gr WFN at 1650fps and it is fantastic on deer and elk.
I joined the 45/70 ranks for one reason, to shoot and hunt with my own cast bullets, but were I to use jacketed bullets, not only would it be wise to keep the velocity well below 2000fps, but I'd only use "J" bullets with proven integrity.
Meat in the freezer is my reason for hunting and I don't like blowing it up.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
I also use these bullets, loaded to around 2,000 fps or so. I've always aimed just behind the shoulder and the deer typically drop right there. I would not want to take a shot with these on larger animals (or even deer) from angles where I would need considerable penetration, but with the shots I've been taking on over a dozen deer, the bullets do everything I need them to do. YMMV. . .
tsa45,
Your post brings up one of the reasons I come down so harded on bullet integrity.
No matter how hard I try to assure my shots are good, behind the shoulder also being my choice, this is hunting we're talking about.
Last Fall, my elk was taken at about 100yds. The critter was standing broad side and I had a clear through and through, behind the shoulders hold.
However, in that instant between the touch of the trigger and the time the bullet hit home, things changed. Remember, this is hunting and not shooting at a fixed target.
The bullet exited exactly where planned/desired, but entered through the near shoulder. Clearly the elk shifted positions during that instant. I had enough time in the process, to turn my scope to 7x so the sight picture and the critter were clearly seen before the trigger was pulled.
Thankfully, the 465gr WFN cast has a high level of integrity, meaning it is not likely to blowup or fragment to any great degree and the bullet went through the shoulder blade and not through the heavy shoulder bone so meat loss was minimal.
But, going back to the 2011 elk, taken within feet of last year's critter, and at the same range, this was a quartering shot entering through the near shoulder, taking out the large shoulder bone, a rib, through the lungs, all the way through a very full and heavy paunch and surprisingly stopping just under the hide in front of the off side hind leg.
The bullet started at 465gr. +/- a few tenths, and ended up at 327.9gr. Had this bullet, cast or jacketed, been of lessor integrity, not only would there have been much greater meat loss, but the wound channel would almost certainly been much shorter.
Yes, my shot of choice IS, without question a behind the shoulders hit, but in hunting, for whatever reason we can not be 100% sure that is what will happen. Therefore, Bullet integrity is high on my list.
Probably an Ol'Coot thing, but my first deer taken with a handload back in the 60s, was taken with the long ago Hornady cup and core bullet before the days of the now MUCH better interlock, and that bullet came apart, sheading the core and leaving the jacket behind. The next year I was hunting with Nosler Partitions.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Your post brings up one of the reasons I come down so harded on bullet integrity.
No matter how hard I try to assure my shots are good, behind the shoulder also being my choice, this is hunting we're talking about.
Last Fall, my elk was taken at about 100yds. The critter was standing broad side and I had a clear through and through, behind the shoulders hold.
However, in that instant between the touch of the trigger and the time the bullet hit home, things changed. Remember, this is hunting and not shooting at a fixed target.
The bullet exited exactly where planned/desired, but entered through the near shoulder. Clearly the elk shifted positions during that instant. I had enough time in the process, to turn my scope to 7x so the sight picture and the critter were clearly seen before the trigger was pulled.
Thankfully, the 465gr WFN cast has a high level of integrity, meaning it is not likely to blowup or fragment to any great degree and the bullet went through the shoulder blade and not through the heavy shoulder bone so meat loss was minimal.
But, going back to the 2011 elk, taken within feet of last year's critter, and at the same range, this was a quartering shot entering through the near shoulder, taking out the large shoulder bone, a rib, through the lungs, all the way through a very full and heavy paunch and surprisingly stopping just under the hide in front of the off side hind leg.
The bullet started at 465gr. +/- a few tenths, and ended up at 327.9gr. Had this bullet, cast or jacketed, been of lessor integrity, not only would there have been much greater meat loss, but the wound channel would almost certainly been much shorter.
Yes, my shot of choice IS, without question a behind the shoulders hit, but in hunting, for whatever reason we can not be 100% sure that is what will happen. Therefore, Bullet integrity is high on my list.
Probably an Ol'Coot thing, but my first deer taken with a handload back in the 60s, was taken with the long ago Hornady cup and core bullet before the days of the now MUCH better interlock, and that bullet came apart, sheading the core and leaving the jacket behind. The next year I was hunting with Nosler Partitions.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
I too used a 300gr. HP on my deer last year with mixed results. I had initially bought factory Remington 300gr. HPs before deer season and had so much fun shooting my new H&R Buffalo Classic I just about shot them up. I then decided to save some money and load my own with the Lee Loader. I gathered all the components but the only 300gr. HP I could find was a Hornady, so thats what I loaded (which BTW seemed to kick considerably more than the factory ammo, Lee manual says velocity should be about 1800fps).
First deer; quartering hard to me at 40-50 yards. Bullet entered in front of shoulder, small 45 sized hole. Exit wound, just larger than a quarter, was toward rear of ribs on opposite side. Ran about 40 yards. Looked good.
Second deer; slightly off broadside at 20 yards. Deer was downhill and I was 25ft high so the bullet entered high on ribs. Deer ran about 30 yds and stood almost directly under me in a brier thicket while I reloaded and took a second shot. Down. At the shorter range the entry wounds looked like exits and the bullets disintergrated, no exit. Very disappointed in this bullet at this short range.
That said, I think they would do OK for medium to longish stuff but too much velocity for close stuff. I think I'll go for something bigger and slower next year. Thinkin about a cast 405gr.
Mop
First deer; quartering hard to me at 40-50 yards. Bullet entered in front of shoulder, small 45 sized hole. Exit wound, just larger than a quarter, was toward rear of ribs on opposite side. Ran about 40 yards. Looked good.
Second deer; slightly off broadside at 20 yards. Deer was downhill and I was 25ft high so the bullet entered high on ribs. Deer ran about 30 yds and stood almost directly under me in a brier thicket while I reloaded and took a second shot. Down. At the shorter range the entry wounds looked like exits and the bullets disintergrated, no exit. Very disappointed in this bullet at this short range.
That said, I think they would do OK for medium to longish stuff but too much velocity for close stuff. I think I'll go for something bigger and slower next year. Thinkin about a cast 405gr.
Mop
Mop.
If you can find some of Lloyd Smale's posts, here or on Cast Boolits Forum, he has a good amount of experience with the RCBS 405gr. He feels it gives good results on game.
Personaly, I like something with a bit more meplat, but have nothing like the experience Lloyd has. I have however, been greatly impressed with the wound channel and put down with my 465gr WFN at 1650fps.
I was NOT impressed with a 355gr WFN at 2300fps, not because it didn't creat a wound channel, but because it was over the top and just waaaaaaaay to much. The same bullet with the same meplat in the 1500 - 1700fps range would likely be much better mannered in terms of wound channel.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
If you can find some of Lloyd Smale's posts, here or on Cast Boolits Forum, he has a good amount of experience with the RCBS 405gr. He feels it gives good results on game.
Personaly, I like something with a bit more meplat, but have nothing like the experience Lloyd has. I have however, been greatly impressed with the wound channel and put down with my 465gr WFN at 1650fps.
I was NOT impressed with a 355gr WFN at 2300fps, not because it didn't creat a wound channel, but because it was over the top and just waaaaaaaay to much. The same bullet with the same meplat in the 1500 - 1700fps range would likely be much better mannered in terms of wound channel.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Ol'Coot
You make a lot of sense and even though I've had good success so far, I am considering moving to a stouter bullet. Last year's buck, a decent but certainly not huge 4-pointer, was hit behind the shoulder and went down like he had been struck by lightening. The bullet, however, shed its jacket and didn't exit. The more I think about it, I'd hate to have to pass up a shot requiring more penetration on a really big deer because I couldn't trust the 300 grain Remington to work from a less than ideal angle. I guess I'll need to work on finding a different bullet for this year's hunt. . .
You make a lot of sense and even though I've had good success so far, I am considering moving to a stouter bullet. Last year's buck, a decent but certainly not huge 4-pointer, was hit behind the shoulder and went down like he had been struck by lightening. The bullet, however, shed its jacket and didn't exit. The more I think about it, I'd hate to have to pass up a shot requiring more penetration on a really big deer because I couldn't trust the 300 grain Remington to work from a less than ideal angle. I guess I'll need to work on finding a different bullet for this year's hunt. . .
Hey guys, Just reviewing some of the posts, and don't want to give a wrong impression.
Some folk put a lot of stock in the DRT or ban flop results, and while I do like my critters to go down quickly and that is the result I've seen on deer with the WFN, I am never surprised when I see a critter run a bit after a hit.
In fact, I watched a good deer hunting video with MANY kills one time and there is a huge veration between critters after a good hit. Some drop, some run, some leap high in the air before running or dropping, but all were dead on their feet within seconds of the bullet's impact.
I have seen a bunch of reactions myself over the years.
As is many times said, shot placement. If the shot placement is good and the bullet used is of good integrity, it is a dead critter no matter what the reaction.
My two cast bullet elk, taken just over a year apart and within just feet of each other, didn't drop right there imeadiately. First one walked in a couple of circles and tipped over. The second ran full bore up hill for 50 or so yards, then turned and ran about an equal distance with across the hill, turned again and ran back down hill returning almost to where it was hit before it fell over. All in a matter of a very few seconds.
So, when I speak of the great results I have seen and how impressed I am with the WFN, I really am not concerned with the DRT or Bang Flop as it may or may not happen, but WOW am I ever having a wonderful time and very good sucess.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Some folk put a lot of stock in the DRT or ban flop results, and while I do like my critters to go down quickly and that is the result I've seen on deer with the WFN, I am never surprised when I see a critter run a bit after a hit.
In fact, I watched a good deer hunting video with MANY kills one time and there is a huge veration between critters after a good hit. Some drop, some run, some leap high in the air before running or dropping, but all were dead on their feet within seconds of the bullet's impact.
I have seen a bunch of reactions myself over the years.
As is many times said, shot placement. If the shot placement is good and the bullet used is of good integrity, it is a dead critter no matter what the reaction.
My two cast bullet elk, taken just over a year apart and within just feet of each other, didn't drop right there imeadiately. First one walked in a couple of circles and tipped over. The second ran full bore up hill for 50 or so yards, then turned and ran about an equal distance with across the hill, turned again and ran back down hill returning almost to where it was hit before it fell over. All in a matter of a very few seconds.
So, when I speak of the great results I have seen and how impressed I am with the WFN, I really am not concerned with the DRT or Bang Flop as it may or may not happen, but WOW am I ever having a wonderful time and very good sucess.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
The 300 Rem JHP was designed for velocities lower than most guys here shoot them. I think when you push the speed you are asking the bullet to do something for which it was not designed.
The 150 grin falt point is fine bullet in the 30-30 but not so in 30-06 or 300 Win. Same train of thought.
The 150 grin falt point is fine bullet in the 30-30 but not so in 30-06 or 300 Win. Same train of thought.
Keep in mind that a 300g bullet at 2100fps at chrono distance is only 1700fps@100 yds. I still think that it is a good combination.
I used my 1895 on deer last fall for the first time ,I fired 350 hornady and was quite happy with the results,they were loaded max as to hornady loading manual cant think off hand what the charge of 1mr 3031 was,but the buck I **** ran by before I even got my coffee poured at about 50 yards,so he took the full impact so to speak ,and I had no meat damage ,just 2 nice quarter sized holes,but I did hit him at an angle through the ribs,my opinion is it will work great
Ive been using the slug for over 20 years using 43 gr of R7 powder. awsome round and put deer down in their tracks.
I have been using the Hornady, and the Speer 300 Grn bullets for years. They work for me. I load with 46.2 grns IMR 4198, and shoot them from my 1895, and my Guide guns. My son uses one of the Guides, and swears by the load also.
I once shot a large Doe at about 50 yds, DRT. I walked up to the deer, and noticed a larger than normal entry hole. I could't understand why. It was about the size of a silver dollar, not normal. After investigating I found a small, about 4-5 in diameter, pine tree, with a hole thru it, and the tree was split. The round had gone thru the tree, and still taken the deer. Tree was about 4 feet in front of where I was sitting, so it must have been not seen in the scope., Or I was excited.
Dave
I once shot a large Doe at about 50 yds, DRT. I walked up to the deer, and noticed a larger than normal entry hole. I could't understand why. It was about the size of a silver dollar, not normal. After investigating I found a small, about 4-5 in diameter, pine tree, with a hole thru it, and the tree was split. The round had gone thru the tree, and still taken the deer. Tree was about 4 feet in front of where I was sitting, so it must have been not seen in the scope., Or I was excited.
Dave
I use this bullet with 43 grains of reloader 7 and love it. I've loaded many combos over the years and I keep coming back to this load. It's awsome deer medicine. I highly recommend it.
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