i'd work up a load with from 7 to 10 grains of 2400 or 8 to 10 of 4227, or 7.5 to 9.5 of 4759, if you've got some--i understand they're discontinuing 4759 this year. these are suggested by loads in the old 50's lyman and ideal reloading manuals. you might want to try hard-cast bullets instead; shouldn't need gaschecks at those speeds. a pound of powder goes a long ways at those rates.
mind yer topknot!
windy

 

25cat,

Was planning on helping you out with info from the Lyman Cast bullet books, but surprise, -------- info on the 25/20 but nothing on the 25/35 Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

In reference to the info provided Windy, I have used Lyman's cast bullet data for reduced loads in centerfires such as .270 and 30/06 and was hoping that there would be some cast bullet info for your rifle.

I have had good success with the jacketed bullet reduced loads, using the cast bullet load data, so that should be a worthy direction for your data search.

I know that times it can be a bit hard to find 25/35 brass, but I have made brass for a friend using new Winchester 30/30 brass. One past through a set of Hornady dies using Imperial Sizing Wax and I had brass ready for use in his Savage model 99. Just easy does it with the lube or you'll have dented cases.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

Here is a thread from years ago when I got my new 25-35

25-35 loads - Shooters Forum



Lots of loads and discussion there.

Many loads in many bullets in this thread. I use a lot of rel. 10 and 15 for top performance of the big bullet.

23.5 gr. of rel. 10 was my best for the Hornady 117gr. Bullet.

 

Hey 25,

Welcome to MO.

Later, Mark

 

I very much like your idea of upgrading to 25-35, which should do a great job, power being comparable to a 7.62 X 39 with a bullet possessing good penetration and capability in the 115-117-120 grain weights.

The rub is converting a 25-20 to 25-35. Due to its long bullets, 25-35's have 1-9 to 1-10 twist rates, and if I recall correctly most 25-20's are substantially slower than that at 1-14 to 1-16, although I confess not knowing the exact twist rate a 25-20 219 has. So you may end up with a rifle that does not stabilize a longer or heavier bullet. It will shoot 60's, 75's and 86-87 grain bullets just fine. Find out what the twist rate is before converting or resign yourself to ruling out the heavier weights if said twist is slow and you convert anyway.

To answer your question, try the 60 grain Hornady SP's at a velocity the bullet does not open a lot, which is your proposed 1400 fps. Such bullets will be easier to get than your FMJ's and due to the shape of the bullet it is likely to shoot pretty well as it has a long bearing surface for its length. Since fast powders are often desirably less position sensitive and do not require filler, consider developing your load with a fast powder like Unique that is know for such use, as it is well within a 25-35's pressure capability to run a fast powder with a 60 grain to 1400 fps. Such powders also work well in low temperatures that may be found on a hunt, as they were designed to work efficiently even when low pressure and low temperature are combined.

They are shotgun/pistol powders, after all. Not hard to find a load that works, so if you have more specific questions about, say, Unique, start with a 25-20's maximum charge and increase incrementally until the velocity is that you desire. The equivalent charge will get less velocity in the 25-35 due to the larger chamber area.

 

I'd look into cast loads for saving pelts. :tee:

 

Something like .25 Caliber They are a bit bogged with orders, but they have a 70gr FP that would likely hit that speed over Trail Boss, Unique, or Herco. They also make a 115gr FP.

One issue I've encountered with cast > jacketed, is the lube can do a tune on your point of impact. My .30-30 can be as much as a foot off or more at 100yds, after putting just a couple cast bullets down range. It's a one or the other scenario, but either will work. Usually getting a load tuned for cast bullets is about the same as jacketed, but mixing them without cleaning in between has been a problem for me.

 

TMan, exactly on.

Sometimes the first jacketed shot through a cast bullet lubed barrel goes wild for me too, and I can't necessarily predict it. The point is to check for any such tendency. If cast/jacketed mixing doesn't work, then the OP can stick to his jacketed only plan.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I like cast bullets.

However with quality pelts as the hoped for outcome, I think I'd go for reduced load jacketed bullets.

I realize I'm talking about a different caliber/bullet here, but doing "reduced" loads for a young shooter/hunter I was mentoring this past Summer and the results seen, I think this would be good a good direction to go.

I normally try to get a light for caliber bullet because of the goal to have a very light recoiling round with which to provide lots of trigger time for new/young shooters.

However, with the current obamanation in full swing I was unable to get 100 or 110gr jacketed bullets in 30caliber. So, went to 150gr Remington Core-lokts and noted that even at very close range an fired into a solid block of wood, that bullet gave just a bare hint of beginning to expand. It would have made a good pelt gathering load.

A 117 or 120gr jacketed "hunting" bullet in the 25/35 at the reduced velocity levels should do likewise.

Then, there is the advantage of being able to go a full power load with the jacketed bullet with no issues of copper fouling and lead fouling be mixed.

I have found that with the reduced Jacketed bullet loads, and shooting at close in targets as I normal have my shooters using for the practice with the reduced loads, there is no need to change the sight settings.

For that reason, a person can carry a full power load with the rifle sighted for 100yds +/- in while moving through the hills and make a quick transition to the reduced load when the target distance measured in short feet.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

This info is indeed what I was hoping for and thank you much...especially the rate of twist heads up. When I read the 25-20 penetration tests, I suspected that slow jacketed bullets would do the trick for a pelt saver round.
Another question is on what I read about OLD Lubaloy bullets creating a deposit near the muzzle. Does anyone have experience with this? I have some old boxes of 25-20 and 25-35 Lubaloy that I was going to shoot and I wonder at what year of age is this no longer a problem?

 

I've shot some old Lubaloy bullets and never noticed any issues. Perhaps the lubricant has oxidized over time causing the complaints.

The comment about twist rates would be most pertinent should you convert and not be a handloader. In that case you would find that pretty much any and all 25-35 factory loads would keyhole the bullets and the rifle would be useless.

 

I hear you loud and clear on the twist rates!!! I will measure those 2 bbl.'s and see what they are. This will probably turn out like everything else in life, as in no such thing as a short cut. I imagine a custom bbl is in the future. If so, I was going to restock it anyway, so I may as well go all the way and build a custom gun. If I want to shoot 60gr bullets at 1400 fps and 117gr bullets at 2300 fps, then what would you think is the best twist rate for a 22" bbl ? Keeping in mind that the 60gr bullets will be for close range work (50 feet or so) almost exclusively and the 115-120's have to be accurate out to 150 yds.

 

Probably not less that 1-10 for the 117's shot at that speed in the 25-35, especially if you are also considering relatively long pointed bullets.

 

Well, both of the 25-20 219's do indeed have a 1:14 twist. I have an ultra light 25-06 that I built, with a 1:10 twist that shoots a 3/8" group w/75gr bullets, so 1:10 or 1:9 it is then. It's off to the shop I go on another project!

Thanks for all the info on this and the 25-20 post.

 

25, if you're a handloader, why not use the 25-35 as a high velocity round if you want to go with the twist as is and simply rechamber? If 1-14 twist is present it should stablize the 87's at high velocity easily and the 25-35 can give respectable speed to those bullets. The Hornady spire point and Speer Hot Cor would be two candidates.

Since the 87's in 25 caliber are often of simple construction without any "trick" plastic tips or super thin jackets that would make them "too fast" expanding, an 87 at 2600 fps might be just the ticket. Such a bullet isn't a lot longer than the 25-20's 86 grain softpoints that are shot at much slower speed.

If you are bound and determined to use factory ammo in 25-35, though, you'll have to rebarrel.

 

My two concerns are:
1.) that an 87gr launched at 2600 fps on a bobcat at 50 feet would blow a hole the size of my fist out the off side.
2.) That the 1:14 twist would not stabilize a 115-120gr at 100-150yds.

It is an absolute necessity, that I be able to shoot both the 60-87gr and the 115-120gr out of the same bbl.
I would primarily like to shoot spire points, in both the 87gr and the 120gr weights.
Are my concerns legitimate and is a dual purpose bbl possible?

 

25cat,

One time I tried some long and heavy bullets from a 30Harrett contender barrel. They went sideways through the target at SHORT !!!!!!!! distances, as In just feet.


Now, for taking a cat out of a tree I assume you are at SHORT range.

So, almost anything that will not key hole for you at that range will be close enough to point of aim to likely get er done. Only testing will tell for sure!

However, I really think I'd first concentrate on the load for longer distances where higher velocity and good point of impact is more critical.

Then, possibly using the same bullet with a "reduced" load OF THE PROPER POWDER may be all that you need.

When you take a typical "hunting" bullet and cut the velocity by half (+/-) that bullet will no longer have the expansion properties it did at "normal" hunting velocities.

I was really surprised at the lack of expansion with a Remington Corelock (30cal - 150gr) when put into a block of wood at close range with a reduced 30/06 load. At such a close range, I really expected much more expansion.

If I was smart enough to post an image to the forum, I'd send one along. I have figured out posting to someone's "E" address, so if it would help, send me a P.M. with your "E" address and I'll take a close up and send it your way.


All that to say, That providing the load doesn't key hole it should be easy to get a load that hits close to point of aim at distances of 10 - 20' or less and likely use the same bullet.

You would need to boldly use a bright magic marker color to keep the reduced load cartridges separated from the full power loads, as on the outside they WOULD LOOK THE SAME!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

"My two concerns are:
1.) that an 87gr launched at 2600 fps on a bobcat at 50 feet would blow a hole the size of my fist out the off side.
2.) That the 1:14 twist would not stabilize a 115-120gr at 100-150yds.

It is an absolute necessity, that I be able to shoot both the 60-87gr and the 115-120gr out of the same bbl.
I would primarily like to shoot spire points, in both the 87gr and the 120gr weights.
Are my concerns legitimate and is a dual purpose bbl possible?"


Let's address everything. Will a 2600 fps 87 blow a big hole in a bobcat at 50 feet? Sure it will. So will a 117 at 2250. What's the difference? I don't understand why you're even contemplating shooting a bobcat with a full power load. Don't you already know that won't be "pelt saving?" I thought you were planning on developing a pelt saving load with a 60 Hornady softpoint........why are you shooting said bobcat with something else?

A 1-14 won't stabilize a 117 or 120, true, but.......my question was posed thusly.........does it really matter if you're a handloader?

Understand that the spitzer and spire point 87's were originally developed for the 250 Savage cartridge in order for it to lay claim to the "3000 fps" speed that was a sales point, which explains the oddball weight. Most 87's tend to be of construction not terribly different than your ordinary deer bullet, and when shot about 400 fps or so slower through a 25-35, they should still give a great plenty of oomph for a mountain lion, with muzzle energies comparable to a factory 117 load. Expansion will be excellent, yet the bullet will hold together. Don't be misled by the weight. It's a good bullet for shooting what you plan to shoot.

Also, pointed 117's and 120's aren't better suited than the 87 in the 25-35, as they were intended for higher velocities than the 25-35 will give them, so they really don't offer the range in terms of flat trajectory or expansion at longer ranges that the 87 will give. Despite this, the 117's will still heavily damage a close range bobcat, so maybe an 87 is really better suited for your quest for a dual "mountain lion and bobcat shooter" than a pointed 117 no matter what twist you have.

Given that you have now established by your musings that you are a handloader, the necessity of shooting a pointed 117 or 120 out of your barrel eludes me, unless you absolutely MUST shoot factory 117 grain ammo. Then I'd understand, but quite frankly if you're willing to simply rechamber, you know for certain you have a 1-14 twist, and you "want it all" in terms of pelt saving loads and good killing power you won't be lacking using your existing barrel save for the ability to shoot factory loads. If that's the only way you can get brass you can accept factory load inaccuracy in the rechambered slow twist barrel and load an 87 or 90 grain bullet if you wish as a "handload only" rifle. And the bobcat hole will never occur because you'll use the reduced 60 grain load no matter what twist rate you have.

Factory 25-35 ammo is so darn expensive and rare that I really think the inability to shoot 117 grain bullets is no great loss.

 

35, thanks for bearing with me on this, I am truly sorry my communication skills are so poor and confusing. Let me try again... Yes I do intend to reload for both the 25-35 and the 25-20 and I have two Savage 219 s.s. rifles, both currently factory chambered in 25-20. The reason I need to shoot a heavy bullet (115-120 gr.) on the Lion is for shear stopping power at 100-150yds.I need to be prepared for the worst possible scenario. I frequently hunt the BIG canyon country out here (up to 1800 feet deep) and the lions "Cliff Up", which is to say that they bay up on a ledge, with their backs to the wall and turn to fight the dogs rather than tree, over 1/2 the time. Believe me when I tell you, that there is no worse feeling that I could get, deep down in the pit of my soul, than to have a Lion swat one of my hounds that I have been intensely linebreeding for 15yrs over the edge of a cliff with a 50-300 foot fall...unless it was one of my children...been there...done that.
We all know that a Spitzer vs a roundnose bullet will fly flatter and retain more energy at a longer range. A 120gr. spritzer launched at 2400fps, retains 1046 ft.pds. at 200yds and is still traveling at 1981fps. I know from vast (32yrs) past experiences on Elk and Muledeer, that 2000fps is the magic lower limit for effective expansion on a big game designed bullet. This would qualify the 25-35 w/heavy bullet handloads as a "long range" lion killer. An 87gr spitzer at 2600fps, retains 813 ft.pds. at 200yds and is still traveling at 2051fps. I personally will vote for 25% more delivered energy from a 50% heavier, premium constructed bullet all day long. Then there is the other side of the coin and that is, when shooting a Lion at 10 feet, will the 87gr. hold together as well as, and be as lethal as the 120gr, especially on a full frontal shot to the chest? I seriously doubt it. When hunting lions, things can and do get "Western" in a hurry, so "use enough gun" definitely applies.
I do not intend to EVER shoot a bobcat with a full power load. The pelts are worth far too much. The XL's in my part of the country are selling for $1000 plus each. Instead I plan to work up a reduced velocity load for an 87 gr spitzer, rather than the 60 gr flat point. My thought here, is that the 87gr will cause less damage because of it's shape and type of jacket than the 60gr flat point. An 87gr Speer spitzer at 1400fps should not expand I would think... You?
For now I will use one of the 25-20's with these old factory 86gr. full metal cased for bobcats and an 87gr. Speer spitzer at 1900-2000fps for Lion. That will suffice until I decide whether to simply rechamber or build a new barrel for the other one. Any idea what the muzzle velocity of these old factory 25-20, 86gr. f.m.c. Remingtons in the dogbone box are rated at?
I am thinking that for the 25-35 heavy loads...IMR 3031 is in store?
I am thinking that for the 25-35 light loads...SR 4759 is in store?
As for the light and Max. 25-20 loads, I will post on the 25-20 Reloads thread in order to maintain uniformity.
Thank you for your time...

 

You'll have to bear with me a bit longer. The 1-14 twist barrel is more of a practical option than you realize just yet, for the reason that rebarrelling a 219 will be hugely expensive, but I'll get back to that in a minute.

Barnes offers the 80 grain tipped triple shock X in the .25, which will do anything you require and probably penetrate to the root of the tail on a frontal shot on mountain lion. You could not ask for more. No performance will be left on the table compared to your "premium" 117's because the TSX is a premium bullet as well.

2400 fps is seriously optimistic from a 25-35 and a 117 grain bullet. More honest and attainable is 2250 to 2300, as the 219 action should be held to 30-30 pressure levels. Most load data is as I state. Given this fact, and given that we're still talking a 25-35 and not something a lot bigger, a lighter weight bullet will obtain 25-35 energies as well. With a 117 grain bullet a 25-35 is still just a 25-35. If a serious amount of whoopass is needed, another caliber should be considered.

Rebarreling a 219 is not simply a matter of screwing another one on. Since we have to custom fabricate a barrel from scratch, there went all practicality. A blank the diameter of the action at the breech must be obtained, which is unlikely, and the breech end must be contoured, headspaced, and fitted, with an ejector needing to be installed. In addition, the lugs to lock up the action have to be either fabricated from the barrel by being hand filed or a separate set of lugs has to be welded on. All this for an obsolete, low value gun? Seems like throwing too much money at the problem.

For the cost you could buy possibly two or maybe even three NEF single shot Handirifles in a caliber with 2 1/2 times the muzzle energy of a 25-35.

Realistically, your options are either rechamber the gun you've got, which will run 80-110 bucks if the gunsmith you patronize already has or can rent a reamer, or buy a Handirifle. Rebarrelling your 219 just isn't worthwhile and it's nowhere near cost effective.

 

Thanks, but I already looked at the NEF's as an alternative. They are a full 1 1/2 pounds heavier and have an exposed hammer, which I do not like at all. I understand that they don't break down into two pieces to fit in my pack. I need both hands to climb with. A 30-30 is the perfect all around caliber for Lion, but I thought the .308 diameter too large for reduced loads on Bobcats. Maybe I should just get a factory 30-30 barrel and have it head spaced to what I have or another 219 in 30-30. I have a 1894 Win T/D w/22" bbl I was going to use, but I am looking to save weight. A 219 w/22" bbl weighs 5 1/2 lbs.

Meanwhile, I do like your idea of the Barnes 80 gr triple shock for the 25-20. Can it be pushed to 1900-2000fps and stay within 28,000 C.U.P.?

 

Actually, being a break open action, they will break down into two pieces. There is no other game in town other than a Contender, which do not reassemble as easily on assembly, as a pin has to be driven in through the action, but it can be done.

Savage 219's are no longer made. No factory 30-30 barrels are available. Your best option is a used 219 in 30-30. A 30-30 can easily be loaded down for pelt saving loads.

I recommended the 80 Barnes Triple Shock not for the 25.20, but rather for the rechamber to 25-35 as the best bullet that can be used and the "no drawback" way to convert your gun to a full power, effective 25-35 lion gun that does everything you need with the barrel you've got. It really isn't a 25-20 bullet option as it seems a waste to use such an expensive bullet for the job when a 86 grain Remington softpoint, available as a component for handloads, will do just as good a job at much, much less cost in your existing 25-20 barrel.

 

I hear you on the Contender...it was my first choice, except for reassembly in the field in subzero temps and two feet of snow!

I see a few 30-30 barrels only for sale from time to time, but a complete rifle is far easier to come by.

"I see said the blind man" ...about the 80gr.TSX in the rechambered 25-35 barrel. Other than the reamer, I would only need a 30-30 extractor. I like that a lot, as I can also down load a different bullet for the Bobcats and shoot it thru the same barrel !!!

Whalla...an inexpensive dual purpose cat/lion lightweight backpack gun. Thanks for hanging with me on this one.


P.S. Some guy just paid $146.00 for a yellow box of Winchester Super-X and $100.00 for a box of new manufacture Winchester in 25-35
on the GunStroker site !!! OMG!!!

 

25cat,

The 30 calibers are fantastic for reduced loads. Get a Lyman cast bullet book and use the data for great reduced Jacketed bullet hand loads.

As I mentioned earlier, I was amazed at the lack of expansion with the 150gr Rem Corelock shot into a block of wood at maybe 30 feet with the bullet ahead of 12gr of Red Dot. Would pretty much just be a tiny hole in and depending on the angle maybe not even out again.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

25cat,

The 30 calibers are fantastic for reduced loads. Get a Lyman cast bullet book and use the data for great reduced Jacketed bullet hand loads.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I plan on trying some reduced 110gr. fmj's out of my saddle gun.

 

Man.........seriously, I knew 25-35 was expensive, but the panic buying thing really has stuff backwards in terms of price. I hope you have a big stash of brass saved.

I've tried to reassemble Contenders in the field. Given that carrying a plastic headed mallet in the field is really dumb, reassembling a Contender in the field is completely to be avoided, and with my luck I'd lose the frame pin, too. I'd rather have your 219 for such a task, too.

 

I only have 200 rnds of 25-35, but will try to pounce on a bulk order of the next "seasonal" run, whenever that is.

So now for the loads:
What powder and charge weight for max. load behind that 80gr. Barnes? @ what fps?

What bullet, powder and charge weight for the reduced bobcat load? @ what fps?