The deer you run into is in real trouble!

 

My thought exactly!

 

Good idea. I need to do the same thing for my 35xlr using cast bullets from a Ranch Dog mold.

 

I like your thought process on using the same target for each shot and with it being from a cold barrel. That’s realistic shooting!

Way to go!

 

this is what one will do with a full charge of #3031 powder out of a remington model 81,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

the Remington 81 is truly a treasure. At what distance did you shoot that deer do you know? I am kind of old-school I guess I'm like the 200 grain Winchester power points, Remington core and or federal. I personally limit my range with the 35 Remington to 100 yards maybe 125. I have other rifles there more effective it rages beyond that.

 

Thanks for the positive comments guys. This rifle has shot very well with every bullet I've tried so far, but I did a lot of work relieving pressure from the mag tube spring getting it to print the groups to the same place all the time. It tended to print high and low when I got it, small groups but some shots were high others were low. I would actually get two tight but separate groupings on the same target.

I first removed just the spring and follower and shot it single shot and it shot amazingly well. When I put the spring back in it went back to high and low! Once I took the pressure off the front barrel band screw the two groups came back together for good.

It isn't always possible but I do like to take care of business with the first shot well placed and that calls for knowing where that first bullet is going to go. I'm not really concerned about 220 yards, but I was curious about where the first bullet would go out to about 150 yards. In over 40 years of hunting up here in the northwoods 150 yards is as far as I've ever taken a deer and as far of a clear shoot as I've seen really. With a Point Blank range of 150 yards using a 2 inch circle I don't think I have to worry about holding high or low. The FTX lives up the claims, it's pretty darn flat at normal lever gun ranges and will stretch the useful range out if called on. I'm a happy man!

 

OLSKOOL,

That's what I want to see, a good size leaky hole in one side and out the other. Clearly it didn't go far with that hole through it's lungs!

 

no he didn't go far. distance he was shot was about 50yds, he ran with his tail up like i missed! but he only went 50yds and crashed. my rifle will 3031 will shoot 1 hole groups at 50yds off a bench, at 100 it will shoot better than i can. i know LVR is all the rage, i tried it and i don't like it. pressure is to high and it is to snappy. i have not found anything better than 3031 with jacket or cast boolits,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

The OP has a great trajectory/accuracy testing protocol, I really like it. A few comments which are not meant to be critical, just constructive feedback.

Has he tested bullet expansion at 220 yard velocity? I’d be curious to know the expansion at reduced impact velocities.

Does he expect to actually change the scope magnification in the heat if the moment while hunting? I can see a fixed higher magnification when he’s hunting from a blind, but what about when he’s still hunting? IME I see a deer and shoot with the magnification already set on the scope.

Leverevolution is a great powder for the .35. In my 18.5” barrel with 44.0 grains I get 2245 fps with the 200 RN CoreLokt - which does expand at 200 yards, but has a more looping trajectory than the FTX does.


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No flies on the old 3031, it is one of my favorites.

My problem is I come to the .35 Remington from the .358 Winchester side of things and while I don't expect the .35 to push a 200 grain bullet at 2500 fps I get a little uneasy at jacketed velocities under 2000 fps. I know, I know, but it's something I have to deal with and I do the best I can.

LVR gets me to and a bit over 2000 fps and I feel good about myself again. When that kind speed comes with accuracy like I'm getting from my rifle I get all warm and fuzzy and you can't wipe the smile off my face.

The extra 150 fps I get with LVR over my second favorite .35 powder, 3031, is what I would call a minimum increase that one could expect to see a difference with in the field, but I do feel better having it.

It's funny when I think about it because I have very successfully used my 336W in .30-30 with a cast bullet at 1800 fps, there is just something when using jacketed bullets that trips inside my head and I start feeling like I just need a little bit more speed.

Obliviously your 3031 load is working well, don't let my thinking change what's working for you.

 

well done sir

 

Rollingblock,

Good questions. Lets see if I can answer them.

Yes, I did test expansion at 220 yards. The tests were done with water soaked phone books. If I remember correctly I fire 4 shots at 220 yards. Two expanded very well though not as much as the ones at 145 yards, but still lethally. One bullet hit along the edge of the books and while it showed good expansion I did not recover the bullet, it had exited the side of the box.

You'll note that I have never shot a deer around home, in the northwoods, at greater than 150 yards. So I don't really worry about the expansion half a forty away, because it ain't really going to happen. If it did happen I believe I could hit the deer through the shoulders at 220 yards and that would be plenty to put it down for the count. I do not worry about the unlikely too much, I have trouble enough just dealing with the things I know are likely to happen.

The 4th bullet clipped something along the way and was tumbling when it hit. It was recovered and as one would expect it did not expand much at all. I could not determine what it hit or why it tumbled with any degree certainty. I have meant to go back and test this distance again, but that hasn't happened yet. Maybe this year now that I am back with the FTX.

Yes, assuming there is time I would turn the mag up to 4X especially with a deer sneaking through the swap at some distance from me. I do this all the time. My scope is set to 1.5 power unless I am sitting somewhere that would be likely to involve a longer shot than 100 yards. That is again unlikely around here. Most of our shooting is at deer that are inside of 40 yards and most often moving if not flat out running. We practice diligently for these types of shots. I cut my teeth hunting snowshoe hares in the swamps using a 10-22 with a 1.5 fixed power scope and I rarely missed. My boys are even better at this than I am. It is a skill that can be learned.

I went higher than the 42.0 grains of LVR I'm using in these loads but the accuracy fell off rather quickly. I'm somewhere around or near 2100 fps and as happy as can be.

 

Excellent data. I just bought a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington. This will be my first season with the 35. I am also loading FTX in Remington brass and LVR powder. Your data and efforts are really encouraging.

 

I'm looking at the target now, guys (the OP is my father), and it's impressive. His .35 is a shooter. He's all excited. Man, we can't wait for deer season!

 

Olskool - nice deer, beautiful rifle, and great shot! While I have not loaded the 200FTX in the .35Rem, my wife has shot two deer with the factory round - one hit the shoulder and the deer went about 10 yards, the other through the lungs that went about 50 yards. The shoulder shot was pretty messy because it practically blew off the off shoulder. The lung shot was pretty typical for the .35Rem. (I also shot a doe with a 160FTX factory out of a 30/30 that year that went about 30 yards after destroying both lungs.) My non-scientific Analysis upon butchering all 3 animals were: 1) the bullet tends to act more like a hollow point with a fairly thin jacket than a typical round nose when striking bone 2) the bullet opens predictably on soft tissue, even at .35Rem speeds 3) both caliber cartridges were accurate (one in .35 and one in .30 cal.) with both very accurate when used in respective 336 Marlins and none of the bullets were recovere.

 

I bought my Marlin 336 35 Rem about 15 years ago, a 1969 model. She wears a 1.75-5 Bushnell scope. My go to load is the 180 Speer with a good dose of H335. Pushing it to 2350+ fps. Excellent accuracy. I have played with 3031 but the velocity is slow and you cannot stuff enough 3031 into a 35 case for incresed velosicity without compressing the powder, which I wont do. Like all of you, I am anxiously awaiting deer season here in SE Wisconsin. Shoot straight !!

 

When I owned a Rem Model Seven KS bolt gun with 20 inch barrel it chronographed the 200 gr at 2070 fps.

 

Shot a buck in Vilas last year with the 30-40. This year I'll be using my 35 with ftx bullets too. Good luck!

 

OP, thanks for the reply. Hodgdon load data for the 200 FTX is somewhat lower than for conventional cup and core bullets like the 200 Remington or Hornady, for the latter max is 45.0 grains. But then all those maximum loads produce less than 35,000 CUP pressure, well below what most rifles can safely handle. In my case, accuracy was better at 44.0 grains than at 42.0, but each rifle is different, I’d say yours is performing great!


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I had a similar results shooting the Hornady factory loaded FTX out of my 1958 336SC.
All shots from 50 to 200 yards were inside my 4" target with a center hold
I also plan to use the 35 Remington exclusively for rifle season this year.

REK

 

To follow up on one of Rollingblock's question regarding expansion of the Hornady FTX .35 caliber 200 grain bullet the following is from two years ago and with a lighter charge of LVR powder. That load was chronographed at 1988 fps or about 100 fps slower than my current load and subject of this thread.

I think expansion was excellent across the entire test. I would need to retest at 200 yards before I would feel entirely confident that it expands well out that far. These were fired into water soaked catalogs and phone books. I had NO jacket/core separations during my testing. I don't think the 100 fps more I'm now getting would change much. This FTX certainly looks to be an excellent bullet in my 336 .35 Remington. The real test will come in a month, deer season.

 

Great pics, thanks for the followup!




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Following up more on the Hornady .35 caliber 200 grain FTX in my Marlin 336 .35 Remington.

I’ve been deer hunting here in northern Wisconsin with leverguns for the past 14 years and I really believe these rifles are an excellent choice in the hardwoods and cedar swamps we hunt. Most shots are 40 yards and less. Yes there are some opportunities for longer shots but they are rare and much harder to connect with especially if the deer is moving.

We usually sit in blinds for the first 2 or 3 days depending on the weather and deer movement. It doesn’t take the deer, especially the bigger bucks, long to figure out deer season is on. Once they know what’s up they shut right down and lay low. We then switch to making silent drives and sneak throughs to get the deer up and moving. Moving being the operative word here.

Whether you jump a deer up out of it’s bed or someone else does and it runs past you they are generally getting the heck out of Dodge in a hurry. The shots that we get are fast and close in heavy cover. I know there are those who would never take such a shot and I believe that is probably true for most hunters. If you are not skilled at hitting running game you should either pass altogether or learn how to make these shots. Whatever the circumstance, if you lack the skill to make a killing shot you should all know enough to pass. If you decide to take these running shots all safe gun handling rules apply even more and even a very skilled running game shooter must knows when to pass. We are all responsible for every bullet that leaves our rifles.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I learned how to make these types of shots as a young man hunting snowshoe rabbits (hares) using dogs and a 10-22 with a 1.5 fixed power scope. Like the deer we hunt those rabbits were always running for the hills. This is how my father learned to kill running game and this is how he taught the skill to me. We started hunting rabbits in December and continued into March and I was out there every chance I could get, every weekend and holiday.

Unfortunately snowshoes are a rare thing around here these days and have been since the early 1980s. There were a few when my son was old enough to start hunting them, but nothing like what I had to work with at his age. Back then the swamps were full of the little buggers and a good dog could keep them moving all day and I hunted over a number of good dogs.

About 20 years ago I began experimenting with moving targets to sharpen my own skill at running game. Like most things if you want to be really good at it you never stop practicing. I tried several ways to get a target to travel across in front of me through the trees. Not all targets looked like deer, but once I had something that work reasonably well I began making life size deer shaped targets and the fun really got going.

Once I had it working, but still far from perfected, I had my son join me and the competition began. Competition just makes a man try harder and get better. About 12 years ago my son’s buddy joined in and I watched these two young guys improve their skill at hitting running deer every year. The effort they put into learning the art began to pay off very quickly.

I have seen both of them, my boys, make shots few others could and not just once or twice but every year. These days when we are making a drive and one of us takes a shot there will definitely be venison tender loin on the camp stove that night.

This link shows a very short video of my son taking his turn at our “running deer” this past weekend. The deer, as it is now, travels 50 yards through the woods at a very good speed. It starts out about 50 yards from the shooter, passes within 35-40 yards and ends up about 60 yards from the shooter. The deer is released by a line from a safe distance behind the shooter. We move the shooter’s location after each of us gets 2 or 3 turns at bat. Any change in location makes a huge difference in what the shooter sees and where he can sneak a shot through. In the video my son fires two shots and both hit the deer through the lungs and would have been killing shots on a real deer. He is using his Dark Series .45-70 which is his levergun of choice these days. It served him very well last year loaded with Hornady LeverEvolution ammo.

I of course get my turn too and again this year using my .35 Remington with FTX bullets set the bar pretty high. The two pictures show what I was able to do with the FTX bullets at 2100 fps on my first two runs. I’ve been working on this type of shooting for over 40 years, but it does take practice. I found good hits very easy to make with the FTX bullets. Each picture has 3 shots on the deer, but you’ll have to look pretty close at the one to see them.

You’ll probably notice many patched holes that are not “good” hits and some that are misses. That is the beauty of a cardboard deer, we can challenge ourselves and push the limits and learn where the lines are without harming any live deer. This particular deer has been through 3 years of testing us and every year we do a little better and we make it a little more difficult the next year.

 

More good hit than bad... good practice

 

Dang I'm happy to see this type of post. I grew up deer hunting in PA and I would really have to stop and do some thinking to determine how many deer I had shot before I ever shot one standing still. I guess nobody ever bothered to tell me that shooting a running deer is supposed to be hard because I just shot them and didn't think anything of it. I can think of 2 running deer that I missed. One was because my scope and glasses were fogged and snow covered. One was because I hit a branch on a pine tree that was about an inch in diameter. I followed that deer up into the woods, did a half circle and came in on him from a different direction and killed him about 30 minutes later. On that shot he was probably 4 to 6 feet off the ground jumping over the top of a fallen tree. I shot him with a Savage bolt action 30-30 with a Redfield peep sight and he folded up like a dove and bounced when he hit the ground. Shot was barely 30 yards. Very similar conditions to what you talk about. Oddly, I've never been one to attempt shooting running rabbits with a 22. That just seems far more difficult than deer. I did once shoot a house cat running like heck after he came out from under my truck but that's another story.

I'm curious about one thing...

In your first pic with the various distances on one target, one thing stands out for me. With virtually every scoped Marin I own, the 25 and 100 yard points of impact are about 3 inches off from each other. That is, if sighted dead on at 25 impact is about 3" high at 100. (Typically scope on Leupold or weaver base and low rings) To be dead on at 100 I need to be about 3/8" low at 25. The only thing I can think of that might be a factor is you mentioned shooting from a cold barrel and with 2 rounds in the magazine. I've had obvious vertical differences show up on many 22's I own between first shot and the rest but my Marlin centerfires don't seem to do that. I'm wondering if it might be the added rounds in the magazine. I usually always just single load at the range and I honestly am not sure that I've EVER put rounds in the tube when target shooting. I might have to experiment with this. I do typically fill the magazine when hunting. I can't believe now that I've never tested for impact differences between full mag and empty mag.

 

Dave,

Well you got me thinking now. This was the first time I've done this experiment with the FTX bullet but not the first time I've done the experiment. In fact I went and looked in my notes and did the range experiment last year but with the 200 grain Sierra RN. That's another excellent bullet in my .35 Remington chambered 336.

I do not recall if I single loaded the Sierra bullet or not, but I usually run the rifle just like I would when hunting. The main reason I do this is because this rifle had a tendency to shoot 2 very different groupings when I first got it. If I sat down and shot with one in the chamber and the tube loaded it would randomly put 2 or 3 shoots up high and the remaining shots down low or the other way around. It was noticeable at 50 yards but at 100 yards the groups were 6 inches apart! Each group was nice and tight. Nothing seemed to make it want to shoot all shots to the same place.

Knowing that the mag tube can cause this kind of problem I removed just the spring from the tube and all shots (single load) went into a very satisfyingly small group at 100 yards. I replace the spring and it went right back to the high/low thing. I tried the usual loosening up the screws in the barrel bands and that didn't correct the problem. After thinking it over for a while I decide to take an extraordinary route and I added a locking lug to the mag tube that effectively stops any forward spring pressure against the barrel 6 inches in front of the receiver. BINGO! 1 to 1 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards and very consistent POI each time.

Apparently the varying spring pressure as I cycled rounds from the tube caused shots to randomly go high or low. The lug was a lot of work and isn't prefect but it sure works.

Ok, back to the range testing with the Sierra bullet. At 25 yards it was 1/4" low, at 50 yards it was 3/4" high and at 100 yards it was 1 7/8" high. Out at 170 yards it was 3 1/4" low. All with the same POA.

This year with the FTX it is much flatter in my test. I'm not sure if it's all the bullet's shape or the 2100 fps or what. It is the same scope and mounts. I love my Pig Plex scopes!

My rifle, with the FTX, was not the only rifle/bullet we tested this year. My son and his buddy both have 1895s in .45-70 and they were shooting Hornady factory loads with the 325 grain FTX. Which is another excellent bullet for deer. My son has a scope and setup similar to mine. When he shot he was 1" high at 25 yards, 2 1/4" high at 50 yards and 3 1/2" at 100 yards. He lowered his scope setting after these results but I don't remember exactly how much. This was with his Dark Series with it's 16 1/2" barrel and at about 1825 FPS.

His buddy has a brand new 22" Remlin 336, which is a very nice rifle in all respects, and he was shooting the same Hornady load. I don't know what the velocity is from his 22" barrel. He does use the factory sights. He was dead on at 25 yards, 3/4" high at 50 yards and maybe 1/4" low at 100 yards, but with barrel sights it hard to say exactly. All 3 shots were within about 2 inches, which is pretty darn good with the barrel sights! He was somewhere around 5" low at 150 yards. All shots would have cleanly kill any of our deer up here.

I may have to go out and shoot 1 shot at 25 yards this weekend just to confirm my results, but I would not expect anything different from what I had last time.

Your hunting is a lot like ours for sure. I have shot running deer as close as 30 feet and as far 140 yards (once), but most have been well inside of 60 yards. For me it is as natural as can be, it's all engrained from experience. There is no thought that goes into it at all, my rifle comes up to my shoulder and the cross hairs are on the deer and I establish my lead and squeeze the trigger in one fluid motion. If something does not look right I can sense it and don't shoot, but if I shoot it's because I am as sure as a man can be that I will make a good shot. I've been hunting deer for 50 years and I would be lying if I said I never made a mistake, I have, but I have worked hard to minimize the chances because it is important to me to be the best hunter I can be and I feel I owe that to the animals I hunt.

Thank you for your reply.

 

Dad, I lowered my sight setting 1.5" after I shot my string.

 

D.T. Your data for the Sierra bullet would be pretty close to what I'm used to seeing though you are at 1/4 low at 25 as opposed to my dead on that gave me 3" high at 100 or my 3/8-1/2" low at 25 which gave me dead on at 100. Both my rifle and my sons (both 336's in 35 Rem) shoot this pattern with factory LE ammo. I had the thought that perhaps the 25 yard shot was the first one you fired and it might have been from not just a cold barrel but from a dead clean one. Not uncommon for the first fouling shot to hit a bit high in my experience. Either way, it's dialed in and 1/4" at 25 yards isn't gonna be something you'd ever notice on a deer eh?