Can they be shot in my 1894C SAFELY?.I have to ask this question only because,I have never shot lead in any of my handguns,and was wondering if they make the guns harder to clean.I know they are a heck of a lot cheaper,but cheaper isn't always the best way to go.
AMBASSADOR
Generally anything 15 BHN or harder is refered to as "Hard Cast". Keep in mind Hard is not always better...at least in bullets. Yes you can shoot lead in Marlins, I have used it for years in these calibers: 38, 357mag, 44mag, 30-30, 38-55, 375 win, 444, 45-70, 35rem. Match the bullet size to YOUR barrel, then match the hardness to the pressure/velocity of the load and your good to go. More info here,
Cast bullet reference on lead alloy's, min / max pressure, lube, shrinkage,
Cast bullet reference on lead alloy's, min / max pressure, lube, shrinkage,
"Hard-cast" seems to be the norm these days for purchased lead bullets, the alloy fills out the mold well and the bullets look nice, but you need to match hardness with the load you're using. Usually hard bullets are used for top loads. Hard bullets aren't necessarily what you need for all loads. You also need to match the bullet size with your bore, Marlin bores don't necessarily match what revolvers use. With the proper load, proper alloy and correct lube, you should have no leading. If you don't cast them yourself, you're giving up control of most of the parameters that need to be controlled when shooting with lead bullets.
Stan S.
Stan S.
What ever you do, don't start casting bullets yourself. If you do, you will never shoot anything but cast lead bullets again.
Like Lunarphase said, don't start casting, good lead is hard enough to come by already. The last thing I need is more competition.
"Hard cast" around here,...has basically become a term to describe almost anything that is harder than pure lead.. In other words, about all the folks that advertise their bullets will use the term hard cast lead. It is really a worthless (ok, maybe that's a little strong) term and gets you asking more questions than it answers. Get a book and do some reading about "bumping up" etc. and the way lead bullets work as you fire your round.
If your barrel has a very smooth bore, etc., it has been said more than once that leading is more often caused by bullets that are too hard rather than too soft...And also that as long as they are soft enough, and your barrel is smooth enough inside,..you will never get leading (see if you can find someone with a freedom arms gun that has a leading problem).
If your barrel has rough spots in the bore,..you are bound to get some leading there until you deal with the rough spots,...it's really a gun fault more than a lead fault.
I switched to lead a few years ago. I had read that John Linebaugh said their pressure spikes and irregularities dissappeared and things became more predictable after they switched to lead for their testing of their guns.
I have a chronograph, and I can attest that after I switched to lead, velocities were much more predictable and usually had quite a bit less deviation between shots (of the same powder,bullet,and primer). Seems like you get a higher velocity with less powder also.
I don't believe I will ever shoot anything but lead in my straight jacketed cartridges anymore. 30-30 I will still use leverevolutions,..although I've got a lead bullet mold for it also, should I decide to change. I also have some leverevolutions for my 45-70. But I got into those before I got my 45-70 mold.
There are some formulas out there (don't have a url handy, though) for lead hardness,..given a certain pressure level (it is reallly the acceleration that determines optimum hardness). If you accelerate too fast, the too soft bullet will plug up the bore nicely, but will also deform a little and you won't be very accurate. If you accelerate to little (for a given load) then your bullet will not bump up and plug the bore at all, and you will get flame cutting around and up the sides of your bullet. So, there is a sweet spot,..that is what you are theoretically trying to find.
One more word about hardness. Things like monotype lead are so hard I believe you can do 30-06 with them. But they are also hard enough that they can shatter on impact. A better solution is to use something that is initially less hard, but when you are casting, drop (quench) them in water,...then the outer areas had a hard rating, but the inside is less prone to letting the bullet shatter on impact...(theoretically, of couse).
Anyway, this is just me thinking out loud. Let me pre apologise for all the bad spellings, but I hope this helps out.
remember, as a rule, lead is nowhere near as hard on a gun as jacketed.
Oh, I just remembered a place where you can get a wealth of information. And they have a lot of articles online and stuff. I think their name is the Los Angeles Silouette Club, or something like that. Of course, now that governer moonbeam is going to outlaw lead...not sure where that will put them.
If your barrel has a very smooth bore, etc., it has been said more than once that leading is more often caused by bullets that are too hard rather than too soft...And also that as long as they are soft enough, and your barrel is smooth enough inside,..you will never get leading (see if you can find someone with a freedom arms gun that has a leading problem).
If your barrel has rough spots in the bore,..you are bound to get some leading there until you deal with the rough spots,...it's really a gun fault more than a lead fault.
I switched to lead a few years ago. I had read that John Linebaugh said their pressure spikes and irregularities dissappeared and things became more predictable after they switched to lead for their testing of their guns.
I have a chronograph, and I can attest that after I switched to lead, velocities were much more predictable and usually had quite a bit less deviation between shots (of the same powder,bullet,and primer). Seems like you get a higher velocity with less powder also.
I don't believe I will ever shoot anything but lead in my straight jacketed cartridges anymore. 30-30 I will still use leverevolutions,..although I've got a lead bullet mold for it also, should I decide to change. I also have some leverevolutions for my 45-70. But I got into those before I got my 45-70 mold.
There are some formulas out there (don't have a url handy, though) for lead hardness,..given a certain pressure level (it is reallly the acceleration that determines optimum hardness). If you accelerate too fast, the too soft bullet will plug up the bore nicely, but will also deform a little and you won't be very accurate. If you accelerate to little (for a given load) then your bullet will not bump up and plug the bore at all, and you will get flame cutting around and up the sides of your bullet. So, there is a sweet spot,..that is what you are theoretically trying to find.
One more word about hardness. Things like monotype lead are so hard I believe you can do 30-06 with them. But they are also hard enough that they can shatter on impact. A better solution is to use something that is initially less hard, but when you are casting, drop (quench) them in water,...then the outer areas had a hard rating, but the inside is less prone to letting the bullet shatter on impact...(theoretically, of couse).
Anyway, this is just me thinking out loud. Let me pre apologise for all the bad spellings, but I hope this helps out.
remember, as a rule, lead is nowhere near as hard on a gun as jacketed.
Oh, I just remembered a place where you can get a wealth of information. And they have a lot of articles online and stuff. I think their name is the Los Angeles Silouette Club, or something like that. Of course, now that governer moonbeam is going to outlaw lead...not sure where that will put them.
Elmer Keith considered 11-12 BHN as hard cast. I believe most of his shooting was done with 9-10 bhn but of course most of that was with a revolver where hard cast is not needed. The most important factor to prevent leading is bullet to bore fit, or more correctly bullet to groove diameter. As long as the bore is clean and smooth and the bullet is .001 to .002 or even .003 over groove diameter, leading should not be a issue. The best bullet sizer you have is the barrel of your gun. Probable 99% of my shooting is done with 12 BHN casts whether gas checked or bare bottom. Sometimes i will water drop my casts which brings the hardness up to about 18 BHN but that is for specific applications. I've run my bare bottom casts up to 1600 fps and gas checked casts up to 2400 fps with no leading issues. Personally I see no need to ever use anything over 18-19 BHN for anything. It all about fit of bullet to bore and whether not to gas check or not.
I had never shot cast bullets before I got into Cowboy Action shooting. I didn't know anything about them and thought they were weird or for old-timers. After shooting literally thousands of them over the years I can say that I love cast bullets. You should give them a try!
G'Day
The only Marlin here that shoots Jacketed bullets is a 1894M. As the 22mag bullets come jacketed. The other 14 Marlins plus other rifles only digest Lead. I even shoot a hard alloy out of my 338MX with no problems. That has 40.5 grns of 2206h which is h4895 and I have zero leading. Don't know how fast it is but at 200m with a lead bullet it nearly went through 1/2 inch plate.
Never under estimate the original bullet, PB was used for a long time before jacketed existed.
Juddy
The only Marlin here that shoots Jacketed bullets is a 1894M. As the 22mag bullets come jacketed. The other 14 Marlins plus other rifles only digest Lead. I even shoot a hard alloy out of my 338MX with no problems. That has 40.5 grns of 2206h which is h4895 and I have zero leading. Don't know how fast it is but at 200m with a lead bullet it nearly went through 1/2 inch plate.
Never under estimate the original bullet, PB was used for a long time before jacketed existed.
Juddy
My 1894c has never seen a jacketed bullet. I get my bullets from Dardas, who is a sponsering vendor to this site. His bullets are 16-18 BH and in my gun run about 1775 FPS with no leading. I have mine sized to .359". Typically, a lead bullet needs to be .001"-.002" larger than the bore to avoid leading, unless you have a MicroGroove bore. Then you'll need .002"-.003". My H&R 45-70 uses cast bullets sized at .459" and although I had some leading initially, I got the problem eliminated with some JB Bore Polish, some elbow grease, and a hundred rounds or so.
GH1
GH1
Good ol' Lyman #2 Alloy has a BHN of 15... Heat-treating bullets cast from that ally will run the Brinell up to ~21 or 22... Linotype will run up in the neighborhood of BHN of 22... Pure lead has a BHN of 5...
FWIW, Heat-treated Lyman #2 alloy will expand somewhat, but only because the heat-treat influences the outer portion of the cast bullet, but doesn't create a thru-hardness. Linotype won't expand much at all, and Lead will flatten like a pancake if you hit something pretty hard.
For me, the cast bullets I shoot in my 1894 are sized to 0.432" dia. (0.002" over the slugged bore), and those are cast from a heat-treated Lyman #2, but they also have a gas-check... Velocities in the 1,750 fps neighborhood don't lead my bore. Also, from my .444XLR, I have shot 280 gr LFN-GC bullets of the same heat-treated alloy (also gas-checked) up to 2,200 fps and no leading to speak of. Of course, the gas-check makes all the difference in the world, IMO...
FWIW, Heat-treated Lyman #2 alloy will expand somewhat, but only because the heat-treat influences the outer portion of the cast bullet, but doesn't create a thru-hardness. Linotype won't expand much at all, and Lead will flatten like a pancake if you hit something pretty hard.
For me, the cast bullets I shoot in my 1894 are sized to 0.432" dia. (0.002" over the slugged bore), and those are cast from a heat-treated Lyman #2, but they also have a gas-check... Velocities in the 1,750 fps neighborhood don't lead my bore. Also, from my .444XLR, I have shot 280 gr LFN-GC bullets of the same heat-treated alloy (also gas-checked) up to 2,200 fps and no leading to speak of. Of course, the gas-check makes all the difference in the world, IMO...
There is a heat treating formula at the bottom of this page Heat treating cast bullets and lead - antimony - arsenic alloys and my tests show it does work. The trick is to know what the actual temperature your oven is producing. As to whether heat treating results with the same hardness throughout the cast is debated on both sides of the isle. My thoughts are it probable depends on the temperature of the cooling water and how fast the cast is actually cooled. I suspect that 30 caliber and below pretty much cools at a pace that the bhn is the same in the center as the outside where as 45 caliber may be a little softer in the center. Of course that is just my opinion so I don't know if it is right or wrong.
I have a 38/357mag Marlin 1894CS w/ the micro groove barrel. I've used hard cast lead bullets in it for over 14 years of shooting SASS. The barrel has never given me a concern and I don't even clean it all that often. LOL....the same can be said about my Colt SAAs (I mean about cleaning) and they of course use lead (as per the rules of the game).
Lead bullets makes for some cheap/affordable shooting.
As for the term "hard cast?" Well, I leave that up to my bullet supplier. Yes, there is a way to test bullets for hardness. And, I believe that Lyman once had a cheap kit to do just that. It wasn't exactly scientific and didn't give a BN number that you could bet on. Anyway, I keep my loads way under 1000 fps. So, I don't worry about it....life is too short.
You could use this sort of tool to get an "in the ball park" comparison done.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/193445/saeco-lead-hardness-tester
Aloha, Mark
Lead bullets makes for some cheap/affordable shooting.
As for the term "hard cast?" Well, I leave that up to my bullet supplier. Yes, there is a way to test bullets for hardness. And, I believe that Lyman once had a cheap kit to do just that. It wasn't exactly scientific and didn't give a BN number that you could bet on. Anyway, I keep my loads way under 1000 fps. So, I don't worry about it....life is too short.
You could use this sort of tool to get an "in the ball park" comparison done.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/193445/saeco-lead-hardness-tester
Aloha, Mark
Don, I would guess that 95% of the casts that I shoot in my 357 is at 11-12 BHN. The other 5% are heat treated to 17-18 bhn for the 308. I've run plain base bullets at that hardness (12 BHN) up to 1500 fps with good accuracy and no leading. My gas checked loads at that hardness are run anywhere from 1700 fps to just shy of 2000 fps, again good accuracy and no leading. Size of bullet to bore fit is the number one importance in shooting casts. Hardness comes in somewhere around second or third. If the bullets you bought at 12 bhn are .002-.003 greater than groove diameter of your gun, then they will shoot just fine all the way up to 1500-1600 if bare bottom and faster if gas checked.
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