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Stainless Steel - How??

12K views 30 replies 21 participants last post by  DeerK  
#1 ·
Yesterday I finally got my 'permit to acquire' in the mail and picked up my new 336SS in 30-30!!! I'm looking forward to taking it shooting next Wednesday ;D

My non-shooting brother said to me, "A guy at my work swears you can't get stainless steel guns!". I laughed and informed him I'd just got one for myself. He then said, "Well, he was saying stainless isn't strong enough to make a gun because it's too soft and can't be hardened like regular steel". I actually hadn't thought much about this and had no answer for him except "...well, they sell thousands of these things and I've never heard of any issues due to using stainless steel, so they must know what they're doing." ::)

My understanding is that stainless is softer and can't be hardened because of it's high carbon content - so, can anyone explain this all to me? Also does anyone know of the grade of stainless that Marlin use? I'm sure my brother is also interested to know more about this. :) Thanks!
 
#3 ·
What JL said. Stainless may be a bit less hard, but depending on the alloy and the hardening it is pretty darned close. There are lots of stainless alloys. Some are optimized for strength, some for corrosion resistance, some for other purposes. There are plenty of stainless alloys that work just fine in firearm applications.

My non-shooting brother said to me, "A guy at my work swears you can't get stainless steel guns!".
Hmm -- well, if that is true then I wonder what that silvery looking metal that never corrodes is that my S&W 686 is made of? And to think that all this time I was walking around thinking it was made of stainless steel... ::)
 
#5 ·
Image


Stainless is no more hard or soft than regular steel.

can't be hardened because of it's high carbon content
is exactly ass backwards; it's the carbon that allows heat treating. I make knives, and I can turn one out that checks 45 on the rockwell scale, or heat treat it to 60+ if that's what's wanted.
The "guy at work is full of it.
 
#7 ·
Stainless steels:

Stainless steel is chosen for its corrosion and rust resistance. The grade of stainless steel most commonly used for firearms barrels is AISI #416, which is a free machining variation of #410. The main constituent in this stainless steel is chromium. Chromium improves wear resistance, and corrosion and scaling at elevated temperatures. The reason this is important for firearms, especially target rifles, is the wear that degrades accuracy is the hot, burning powder gasses eroding the throat area. The throat is the spot in the barrel where the bullet enters the rifling. Without a good start to the bullet in the bore, the gun won't be accurate. If you're going to have a barrel and expect it to last for 20,000 rounds (target rifle), you'll have to select a material that will last that long. The attributes that make stainless steel so desirable for a firearm is unnecessary in an air gun because there are no hot, burning powder gasses. The other feature that most people look to stainless steel for is rust resistance. They use the term "resistance", not "proof", because the grade of stainless steel used for rifle barrels can rust. Stainless steel barrels are not maintenance free. Just because you have a stainless steel barrel doesn't mean that you don't have to take care of it. So it would be a mistake to put a stainless steel barrel on an air gun in the belief that you can now neglect it. At the moment, I don't see where the extra expense and difficulty of machining and rifling a stainless steel barrel would be an advantage. Without the rest of the rifle's components being made of stainless steel, and having a synthetic, weather proof stock, the stainless steel barrel only is no advantage.
THE STEEL.

The barrel of any firearm is a pressure vessel with the action serving to stop up the rear end. The peak pressures involved during discharge are enormous, 50,000 pounds per square inch or more, and special steels are required to safely withstand these stresses.
Two classes of steel are currently used in rifle barrels. Most barrels for use on hunting rifles and in military firearms are made from a high alloy Chrome Molybdenum steel of the sort used in high stress components such as truck axles, conrods and such. In the United States these steels are designated as 4140, 4150 and 4340 types. In Britain these steels are better known as EN 19 or EN 24.

In target shooting stainless barrels have for the most part supplanted the use of Chrome Moly barrels. The steel is not a true, fully austenitic stainless such as is found in cutlery. The 416 type stainless steel used in barrels is one of a group of martensitic steels which can be hardened by heat treating like regular Carbon steels. 416 stainless is more accurately described as a "free machining, rust resistant" steel having a high Chrome content, around 10%, but with sulphur added to give it good machining qualities. It is widely considered that stainless barrels will have a longer life and are more accurate than Chrome Moly barrels. If stainless barrels are "shot in" using the prescribed procedure, the barrel aquires a burnishing which almost eliminates fouling, so making stainless barrels very easy to clean.

Because stainless steel is more expensive than Chrome Moly steel and it is more difficult to black due to the Chrome content, high production makers of hunting and military rifles prefer to use Chrome Moly steels. But target shooters who want the best possible accuracy from their barrels are almost without exception choosing "stainless" barrels these days.

The tensile strength of the steel is measured as the force required to break a rod of steel having a one inch cross sectional area by pulling it from its ends. The tensile strengths of steels used for making barrels should exceed 100,000 lb per square inch giving at least a factor of two safety margin over the chamber pressures experienced during firing. But the impact strength of the steel is probably even more important, this being the ability of the steel to withstand a sharp knock without breaking. Generally speaking, the tensile strength of a steel can be increased by hardening it. But as the hardness is increased, so the steel becomes more brittle and it becomes more susceptible to fracturing from a hard knock or sharp impact - or setting off a small explosion inside a tube of the stuff! A trade off must therefore be made of tensile strength against impact strength and for barrel steel the resultant hardness settled on is usually between 25 and 32 on the Rockwell C scale.

The heat treatment and other production processes involved in making the steel bar leave residual stresses, which can result in the bar bending as steel is removed in making the barrel. The stress can be relieved by putting the steel in an oven and taking it up to 600 C, then allowing it to cool very slowly over the next twelve hours or so. Barrel steel is usually double stress relieved to make absolutely sure it stays straight through the various machining processes.
 
#8 ·
I picked these off of a couple different sites and I am sure there are a lot more detailed ones on the web. These seemed to give the general idea ofthe type and reasoning behind stainless steel used for barrels on firearms. The first section is from an airgun site. The second from a barrel maker./
 
#10 ·
Sure-Shot said:
I picked these off of a couple different sites and I am sure there are a lot more detailed ones on the web. These seemed to give the general idea ofthe type and reasoning behind stainless steel used for barrels on firearms. The first section is from an airgun site. The second from a barrel maker./
Here I thought you typed all that. :D

I knew anyway, Johnny said stainless was more acurate & durable awhile ago.
 
#13 ·
Good write up Sure-Shot, like he said, stainless CAN be made as hard as heat treated tool steel, it depends on the type of alloy you are using. We machine 440 stainless and have it heat treated to 52-56 RC, that's hard! A file won't hardly scratch it, you either use diamond or ceramic inserts to turn it, or grind it. Another myth that isn't true is Stainless guns can't rust. They can and will, they just don't require near as much oiling as a standard steel gun. Cheers-Chet
 
#15 ·
jpickar said:
Please explain your self?? ??? ???

John

My explanation -- when you hear someone speaking absolute balderdash, you should say so. To say that stainless steel, which has been in use for guns since at least the '30s (at least for barrels), is unsuitable is simply moronic. Like "regular" steel, stainless comes in many grades and types, some fine for guns, others not. Proper grades of stainless serve just as well as proper grades of high carbon steel.

I once listened to a learned discussion in which a moron asserted, vehemently, that stainless was non-magnetic, and that, therefore, a stainless gun could not be detected by a metal detector. It is very true that some stainless steel is non-magnetic, but not all, especially the types used in guns. Even when I retrieved a small magnet from my truck and showed how it stuck like glue to every stainless gun present, he still insisted he was correct. That, my friends, is being full of s***!
 
#16 ·
Stainless can't be hardened like regular steel? .......

Try machining forgings from 17-4 PH stainless (around 58-60 Rockwell) and tell me otherwise! Some of the toughest stuff I know of.... I've only machined and know of two materials tougher.... Inconel and Titanium
 
#18 ·
pisgah said:
I once listened to a learned discussion in which a moron asserted, vehemently, that stainless was non-magnetic, and that, therefore, a stainless gun could not be detected by a metal detector. It is very true that some stainless steel is non-magnetic, but not all, especially the types used in guns. Even when I retrieved a small magnet from my truck and showed how it stuck like glue to every stainless gun present, he still insisted he was correct. That, my friends, is being full of s***!
Was that a thread here on MO's? I seem to remember a similar discussion not long ago...... ;D ;D ;D
 
#19 ·
I once had a SMLE Lee-Enfield .303 mfg'd in the US in 1943,....it was very accurate and handy rifle that held (I think) at least 10 rounds in the magazine..I liked the rifle and wanted to have it scoped for a deer rifle..the military side mounts I was able to locate were pretty expensive, so I took it to a knowledgeable gunsmith to have the rifle drilled and tapped for a scope-mount....the gunsmith told me he was unable to preform the work due to the hardness of the metal...he said that a it could be drilled but it required a specialized drill bit that he didn't have....I thought about taking it to a machine shop to have the work done...but eventually traded it for something else. It was another of those firearms that I let go and wished now I had kept....even if I couldn't put a scope on it. :'(
 
#22 ·
Used to call them S#$%house lawyers. Talk authoratively but speak bull. Anyone who thinks stainless can't be hardened never sharpened a Buck stainless blade. If they think it is non magnetic they have a very limited knowledge of what they are talking about.
 
#23 ·
Well there is a little bit of truth in almost every opinion about stainless. That's because there are so many different stainless steels. The only thing they all have in common is enough chrome to impart passivity. There are a variety of different microstructures which iron based materials can have: ferrite, martinsite and austenite are the main ones. Chemical composition, thermal history and cold work all play a part in determining microstructure which in turn determines properties.
Are there non-magnetic stainlesses? Absolutely! With suitable processing, all 300 series steels are austenitic and thus non-magnetic. You want high hardness? Try 440C which can easily be hardened to HRC 60. Most stainless steel gun barrels and other parts are 416 which is only able to reach about HRC 41.
 
#24 ·
Sure-Shot said:
Stainless steels:

Stainless steel is chosen for its corrosion and rust resistance. The grade of stainless steel most commonly used for firearms barrels is AISI #416, which is a free machining variation of #410. The main constituent in this stainless steel is chromium. Chromium improves wear resistance, and corrosion and scaling at elevated temperatures. The reason this is important for firearms, especially target rifles, is the wear that degrades accuracy is the hot, burning powder gasses eroding the throat area. The throat is the spot in the barrel where the bullet enters the rifling. Without a good start to the bullet in the bore, the gun won't be accurate. If you're going to have a barrel and expect it to last for 20,000 rounds (target rifle), you'll have to select a material that will last that long. The attributes that make stainless steel so desirable for a firearm is unnecessary in an air gun because there are no hot, burning powder gasses. The other feature that most people look to stainless steel for is rust resistance. They use the term "resistance", not "proof", because the grade of stainless steel used for rifle barrels can rust. Stainless steel barrels are not maintenance free. Just because you have a stainless steel barrel doesn't mean that you don't have to take care of it. So it would be a mistake to put a stainless steel barrel on an air gun in the belief that you can now neglect it. At the moment, I don't see where the extra expense and difficulty of machining and rifling a stainless steel barrel would be an advantage. Without the rest of the rifle's components being made of stainless steel, and having a synthetic, weather proof stock, the stainless steel barrel only is no advantage.
THE STEEL.

The barrel of any firearm is a pressure vessel with the action serving to stop up the rear end. The peak pressures involved during discharge are enormous, 50,000 pounds per square inch or more, and special steels are required to safely withstand these stresses.
Two classes of steel are currently used in rifle barrels. Most barrels for use on hunting rifles and in military firearms are made from a high alloy Chrome Molybdenum steel of the sort used in high stress components such as truck axles, conrods and such. In the United States these steels are designated as 4140, 4150 and 4340 types. In Britain these steels are better known as EN 19 or EN 24.

In target shooting stainless barrels have for the most part supplanted the use of Chrome Moly barrels. The steel is not a true, fully austenitic stainless such as is found in cutlery. The 416 type stainless steel used in barrels is one of a group of martensitic steels which can be hardened by heat treating like regular Carbon steels. 416 stainless is more accurately described as a "free machining, rust resistant" steel having a high Chrome content, around 10%, but with sulphur added to give it good machining qualities. It is widely considered that stainless barrels will have a longer life and are more accurate than Chrome Moly barrels. If stainless barrels are "shot in" using the prescribed procedure, the barrel aquires a burnishing which almost eliminates fouling, so making stainless barrels very easy to clean.

Because stainless steel is more expensive than Chrome Moly steel and it is more difficult to black due to the Chrome content, high production makers of hunting and military rifles prefer to use Chrome Moly steels. But target shooters who want the best possible accuracy from their barrels are almost without exception choosing "stainless" barrels these days.

The tensile strength of the steel is measured as the force required to break a rod of steel having a one inch cross sectional area by pulling it from its ends. The tensile strengths of steels used for making barrels should exceed 100,000 lb per square inch giving at least a factor of two safety margin over the chamber pressures experienced during firing. But the impact strength of the steel is probably even more important, this being the ability of the steel to withstand a sharp knock without breaking. Generally speaking, the tensile strength of a steel can be increased by hardening it. But as the hardness is increased, so the steel becomes more brittle and it becomes more susceptible to fracturing from a hard knock or sharp impact - or setting off a small explosion inside a tube of the stuff! A trade off must therefore be made of tensile strength against impact strength and for barrel steel the resultant hardness settled on is usually between 25 and 32 on the Rockwell C scale.

The heat treatment and other production processes involved in making the steel bar leave residual stresses, which can result in the bar bending as steel is removed in making the barrel. The stress can be relieved by putting the steel in an oven and taking it up to 600 C, then allowing it to cool very slowly over the next twelve hours or so. Barrel steel is usually double stress relieved to make absolutely sure it stays straight through the various machining processes.
SureShot,
Great post.........most of the other guys are on the right track also........The actual stainless steel used is AISI 416R the "R" is for "reduced, or re-sulphurized, to aid in the machining characteristics.........416R can be, and is heat treated, and it is considered "rust resistant" not rust proof.

Tom
NRA LIFE
 
#26 ·
AussieD said:
My understanding is that stainless is softer and can't be hardened because of it's high carbon content - so, can anyone explain this all to me? Also does anyone know of the grade of stainless that Marlin use? I'm sure my brother is also interested to know more about this. :) Thanks!
I wouldn't trade or sell my stainless Sako 75 Finnlight (30-06) for all the disinformation (or lack thereof) in the world. As for the 336SDT, its still in setup mode, but it looks like a shooter.