Welcome to Marlin Owners from NE Indiana.

I certainly hope the rifle is what you want and what it is supposed to be. Looking forward to pics.

 

hello all, a newbie here, i am looking to purchase a set of 3 Ballard rifles and one has me stumped as to what it is. the other 2 are both pre 1881 models with the J.M. Marlin 2 line stamp, one is a very very clean no.5 Pacific, the other is a nice example of a no. 4 1/4 Ballard A1 with the shotgun buttstock and the Ballard marked black buttplate. the one that is confusing me is the post 1881 Marlin firearms co. 2 line stamp. it is a .40/.80 cal. heavy octagon barrel, single trigger with a ring type lever and this has a wiping rod. it seems to be a no. 4 1/4 but the ring lever i was to understand was not produced beyond 1881. I'm concerned that this may be a "put together" rifle. the shop has agreed to let me examine them more closely by removing the fore arm to check serial numbers, is there anything i need to be on the lookout for to verify these are what they claim to be? I don't have any pictures of these yet but if i do purchase them i will certainly share them here!

The 4 1/4 was a Pacific with single trigger, so the A-1 would be a 4 1/2 Mid Range, not a 4 1/4 model. Marlin didn't build a Ballard in .40-80, and not sure anyone ever had that cartridge either? It might be a .40-85 which would be correct for a 4 1/4 or other models.
One should be suspicious of every 4 1/4 Ballard as they are extremely rare, and 90% of them will be put together fakes. Only way to know for sure is if the seller will let you remove the lever screw and drop the breech block out to examine the serial numbers on the two block halves at the tail. If they don't match the action it's a fake put together gun.
I know of only two real 4 1/4 Ballard rifles I've personally documented, and one of them a friend just won at an auction a couple months ago. It was listed incorrectly, and went cheap. Once he got it and took it apart it confirmed it was a real 4 1/4 Model.

 

Yes,you are correct it was caliber .40/.85, and when I physically looked at the rifle it was clear that it was a No.5 Pacific. Purchased it for a good price I feel. Upon further inspection it has all matching numbers including the forearm. 30" heavy octagon barrel,very good bore.

It is a 2 line Marlin Firearms Co. Stamp serial number 30315 not sure where that puts production I'm guessing 1884/5? I will try to post Pictures.

 

Welcome from the marshes of south Louisiana.
Pictures if you do buy them.

 

I’m new also looking to buy one

 

I have a fake 4 1/4 and the block halves are clearly ground and new serial numbers crudely stamped and in the wrong orientation to boot. I discussed this with John Dutcher and as far as he knows they most/all went through the Browning Brothers shop and have been barrel marked by them. Still, nothing wrong with a "sporterized" Pacific if it shoots and was priced right.

 

I doubt all 4 1/4 Ballards went through Browning Bros. shop, or they'd all have their stamp on them. My friend's confirmed 4 1/4 doesn't have the Browning Bros. stamp.
John told me he'd only seen one with the Browning Bros. stamp, so not sure why he'd think all of them went there? And he mentions in his wonderful book on Ballard history that he'd examined maybe 10 and all but one were fakes.

 

Sounds like a rather fine set. Hope it works out

 

Ok so after taking this pacific completely apart I have found 3 more serial numbers all matching so I'm certain it's all correct. Since I'm new to this wonderful rifle can so.e please explain how the DST work. After taking the breech apart and examining the inner workings it seems that the rear trigger" sets" the front for a lighter pull is this correct?

 

The rear trigger does indeed simply set the front trip trigger. The little screw between the two triggers sets the pull weight and if turned in too far it will make the triggers non functional so they wont set. I usually turn the screw in a 1/4 turn at a time and try to set the rear trigger. Then once it's turned in far enough to disable the set trigger I back it out 1/4 turn or until it's as heavy as I want. I personally like the trip trigger to be light enough that I have to be careful not to touch it until I'm on target and want the rifle to fire.
The way they work is by setting the rear trigger it readies the front trigger and set spring to trip. Once it trips the trigger strikes the fly at high speed and the fly knocks the sear off the hammer allowing the hammer to drop. You can test and adjust these triggers without cocking the hammer, and that's how I adjust and check them. You should refrain from only using the front trigger to fire the rifle, regardless of the fact they will fire unset. Doing so without setting the rear trigger first can eventually break the set trigger mechanism, and should be avoided.

Your breech block internals look amazingly clean and nice! I rarely split a Ballard breech block and find them that clean. Most haven't been split for many decades, and a lot of guys are afraid of them, so wont split them. They can be tricky to get back together, but once you've done one it's easy after that first time. And being a well sealed design they may never need to be disassembled again. Some light oil on friction or pivot points is all they need to last forever. I personally love using Kroil penetrant sparingly on the places as it is slippery, and wont dry to a gummy residue like some oils do.

 

Marlinman93, thank you so much for clearing up what I thought. I am a master technician ( auto) so I enjoy reverse engineering things to see how they work. I was very happy with how clean and original this rifle is, I hope I got a good deal on it. I paid 500.00 for this from a local pawn broker. I have 2 more on layaway, I will post those when I recieve them, both are J.M. Marlin models, one is a4 1/2 & Pacific

 

If his prices on the other two are similar I wouldn't let them sit there very long!

 

No they are more, however this one is not as nice as the other 2, rhe A1 mid range has beautiful engraving with what seems to be an original hard rubber shotgun but plate with marlin ballard stamped( molded ) into it and the other is a beautiful pacific. Both are J.M. Marlin models. Question for you, the pacific has a strange wiping rod that threads into the forestock. It has a tapered brass end. They both have nice fancy checkered stocks with the A1 having ebony inlay. Does this sound correct? All 3 came from a private collection. Also purchased an original 1877 colt thunderer 41cal built in 1881.

 

Marlin didn't make any Pacific rifles that had wiping rods that threaded into the forearm. The rods had a brass tip that was threaded for a jag, but they simply pushed through the thimbles and forearm and were held in place by a close friction fit. The original wiping rods are rarely still with the rifles, and the short extensions are never found. If you try to use the wiping rods without the extension they stop short of the chamber, and wont clean the whole barrel.
Some years ago I got an old 11800's advertisement for a Marlin Ballard Pacific and noticed the image drawing showed a short wooden extension with brass on each end. I had always wondered if a Pacific came with a very long jag, or how one used the short wiping rod until I saw that setup in the ad. I immediately made up a wiping rod and extension for my Pacific so it would be complete. My Pacific had a modern wiping rod, so made a new hickory rod and extension and stained it dark to give it an aged look.

The 4#4 1/2 Mid-Range A-1 Extra were all engraved, and usually had "Mid-Range" on one side, and "Ballard A-1" on the opposite side. Occasionally someone would special order their own engraving style also. They had a horn tip on the forearm, and an ebony inset in the bottom of the pistol grip. They always go for very big money in the engraved versions, and they did offer a plain version that are very rare, but don't get the big money due to them being plainer.
Stocks could be deluxe walnut, English Walnut, or even rosewood. They all had mid-range vernier tang sights, and windage globe front sights, often with spirit levels. Buttplates were almost always hard rubber, but a steel plate was an option, and still shaped like the hard rubber plate. Forearms and grip area were nicely checkered, with forearms usually being more elaborate checkering.

 

Marlin didn't make any Pacific rifles that had wiping rods that threaded into the forearm. The rods had a brass tip that was threaded for a jag, but they simply pushed through the thimbles and forearm and were held in place by a close friction fit. The original wiping rods are rarely still with the rifles, and the short extensions are never found. If you try to use the wiping rods without the extension they stop short of the chamber, and wont clean the whole barrel.
Some years ago I got an old 11800's advertisement for a Marlin Ballard Pacific and noticed the image drawing showed a short wooden extension with brass on each end. I had always wondered if a Pacific came with a very long jag, or how one used the short wiping rod until I saw that setup in the ad. I immediately made up a wiping rod and extension for my Pacific so it would be complete. My Pacific had a modern wiping rod, so made a new hickory rod and extension and stained it dark to give it an aged look.

The 4#4 1/2 Mid-Range A-1 Extra were all engraved, and usually had "Mid-Range" on one side, and "Ballard A-1" on the opposite side. Occasionally someone would special order their own engraving style also. They had a horn tip on the forearm, and an ebony inset in the bottom of the pistol grip. They always go for very big money in the engraved versions, and they did offer a plain version that are very rare, but don't get the big money due to them being plainer.
Stocks could be deluxe walnut, English Walnut, or even rosewood. They all had mid-range vernier tang sights, and windage globe front sights, often with spirit levels. Buttplates were almost always hard rubber, but a steel plate was an option, and still shaped like the hard rubber plate. Forearms and grip area were nicely checkered, with forearms usually being more elaborate checkering.

I am concerned that the other "pacific" may not be what it claims to be. But the A1 is just as you say. I will have to wait to get them both in my hands to delve deeper into them to find out. The one on the far left is the one I have now, the other 2 will be mine in couple weeks.

 

The #4 1/2 looks great, and has unusual earlier engraving style on the receiver. Worth a lot of money as we never see #4 1/2 Ballards under $5000 in average shape.
I am fairly certain the Pacific is a built up gun as I see things that are wrong for a Pacific. One that really jumps out at me are the brass thimbles that Marlin never used. And the forearm has screws through the bottom flat to hold it. I can't even imagine how the wiping rod gets past the forearm screw in full length? That and the deluxe wood and checkering are all incorrect for a Pacific.
All this said, there are parts of the gun that have good value, and would still make it worth decent money as a shooter. The DST Pacific action is worth $1000 alone, and the tang sight is worth $250-$275. The stock set is worth $300-$350, and barrel likely worth $300. So if you add all that up, anything under $2000 would make it worth owning.