I have read .358 Win. brass can be used as is with maybe just some trimming.

>358 Win. brass can be easily formed by necking UP .308 brass using a sizing die with a tapered expander button and using some mica or graphite inside the case neck.

Hip

P.S. .308 Win. ( Remington brand) brass weighs just about the same as WW .358 brass.

 

I have read .358 Win. brass can be used as is with maybe just some trimming.

>358 Win. brass can be easily formed by necking UP .308 brass using a sizing die with a tapered expander button and using some mica or graphite inside the case neck.

Hip

P.S. .308 Win. ( Remington brand) brass weighs just about the same as WW .358 brass.

.

I, too, have read that most guns will feed and extract the rimless 358 brass.

.

 

Midway has it
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390317274

will they ship it across the border?
..

 

J

It may have been on leverguns.com but I am not sure. It was stated that the .358 brass fed and extracted/ejected without a hitch!

Hip

P.S. I think I would make up a .308 dummy round and run it through the action a few times to see how it extracted and ejected first before I started to form brass.

 

Midway has it
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1390317274

will they ship it across the border?
..

Sadly, no. Brass cases are export controlled by either the State Dept. or the Dept. of Commerce. A MarlinOwners member from the US cannot legally mail me even 20 cases without an export permit. I've had some kind offers from members here, but I won't subject anyone to the legal risk. MidwayUSA got busted a few years ago for shipping scopes to Canada without proper permits, so now they won't ship anything to Canada, not even a screwdriver.

As I understand it, Winchester produces 356 Win brass on a seasonal basis, probably once a year. There's little demand for it, so only a small amount is imported to Canada and it sells quickly. I have a standing order with a retailer for 356 brass, but they have no idea when it will arrive, which makes me suspect it will probably be close to a year.

 

.

Silverbow,

Can you drive over (or take the ferry) to Bellingham Wa. and buy brass there?

.

 

Silverbow,

Can you drive over (or take the ferry) to Bellingham Wa. and buy brass there?

Unfortunately, that is breaking the export laws as well, and I've been told that the US border guards treat violations harshly. There's an ongoing discussion on one of the major Canadian gun sights about importing/exporting and most people are now aware that there are two sets of laws that apply: export laws from the US and import laws from Canada. It's very misleading because if you phone our Canadian border services, they'll tell you that there's no problem bringing up to, I believe, 5000 rds of ammunition back to Canada from the US. However, while the importation is legal to Canada, the export from the US is illegal.

The export laws are wide ranging and cover virtually all parts relating to firearms, including scope mounts/rings. Last year, I tried to buy some Marlin scope base plug screws from Brownell's, but they would not ship them to me because Marlin had not registered with the State Dept. Absurd as it seems, I simply changed my order to a set of generic 6-48 plug screws and the order was allowed.

On a related note, I've been waiting since April for a Bell and Carlson stock for my Rem 700, which I purchased online from a dealer in Oregon. This dealer has shipped numerous times to Canada without any issues, but has now run afoul of the the export regulations. Here's an excerpt from an email that the dealer just sent me (note that that $2250 fee is per year):

Here is the latest update on exporting your stock to you. After a 5 month battle with the DDTC by us contending that the sporting rifle stocks are not a "defense article", they have made the decision not allow us to ship stocks without having an export license being issued by them for each shipment. I have sent the required $2250 fee and registration application into them last week so we can become an approved firearm parts exporter.


Once we receive notification back from the DDTC that we are approved then we will need to apply for an export license to ship your stock to you. Believe it or not each order must have a separate license. I do not know how long registration approval will take but do not expect it to be more than a week or so.



I will be emailing a letter to you that you will need to acknowledge and email back to me so that I can send it in with a copy of your purchase order to the DDTC to obtain the license. On future orders I will need to add a $25.00 fee to each order to make up for the extra cost and paperwork preparation they require.

 

The simplest thing for you to do would be to move out of Canada. Or buy a different gun.

 

My Winchester 356W BB94 will feed some rimless cases all the time, and some others (brands) part of the time - guess it's how I hold my mouth. I made some from shortened 30-06 mil-surp and it didn't care for them. 444's and 307W are from the same parent as the 356W, so they would be easy. Just some good case lube and run them up the sizing die - probably would not need to be fireformed, just don't set the shoulder back during sizing. Wish you luck, it's a grand cartridge. I grew up on the Canadian border in Maine during the 50's and early 60's - it was a lot different then.

Jeff
NRA Life

 

The simplest thing for you to do would be to move out of Canada. Or buy a different gun.

You have a different definition of simple than me, I guess. I kind of like it here. I think part of the appeal of these obsurce/non-standard cartridges is the challenge in sourcing the components so buying a different gun isn't that satisfying an option either.

 

My Winchester 356W BB94 will feed some rimless cases all the time, and some others (brands) part of the time - guess it's how I hold my mouth. I made some from shortened 30-06 mil-surp and it didn't care for them. 444's and 307W are from the same parent as the 356W, so they would be easy. Just some good case lube and run them up the sizing die - probably would not need to be fireformed, just don't set the shoulder back during sizing. Wish you luck, it's a grand cartridge. I grew up on the Canadian border in Maine during the 50's and early 60's - it was a lot different then.

Jeff
NRA Life

Thanks for your input, Jeff. Reliability is definitely a concern of mine as I like to hunt with my rifles. The 444 seems best suited for the purpose as it's readily available to me, has a rim, and should be plenty strong to match the extra thickness of the 356 Win brass. The brass thickness is probably my major concern with using 358W or 308W brass; I've read that while the 356 Win has the same outer dimensions as the 358 Win, its volume is less because of the thicker head. I wouldn't be worried with brass thickness for the Winchester BB as, according to Paco et al, the Big Bore is overengineered for the rounds it was chambered in so there is plenty of safety margin; I don't think the same holds for the 336ER.

Ever the rifle hound, this discussion has gotten me thinking about a Thompson Contender barrel that a dealer up here has. The barrel's chambered in 358x444 and comes with dies. If I were to buy that barrel (I have a 7-30 Waters Contender), I bet I could use the 358x444 dies to form the 444 cases and then just run those cases through the 356/358 dies. The question is how do I convince my wife that this logic is sound?

 

.356 rim size is .500" and 444 Marlin is .514", so you may have to tweak your extractor a little to feed reliably. Not sure what else you need to form them, i.e. case forming dies/trim dies; I just don't know. However, I have heard of others using .358 win brass ( necked up .308) in the 356 win. I'd try both. Good luck to you.
The "easiest" thing would be to offer a guided bear hunt to someone who has a .356win, have them bring their 11 pounds of ammo, and leave it with you. ( No, I'm not advocating breaking the law, no law against "tipping" the guide) I've done the same thing in South Africa.

 

.

"The question is how do I convince my wife that this logic is sound?"

Let me know if you find the answer to that one. ;D ;D

.

 

Is there a significant difference between the 358x444 and the 356W? My sources say they are the same case, other than the .506 vs .514 rim size.

Think it was Al Miller did a bunch of case tests 356 vs 358 for "Legacy of the Levegun" and he found no difference in water capacity of the two factory cases made by Winchester. ie no volume difference. My BB94 does not give any significant velocity difference if I use factory 356W's or 308's necked up - just doesn't matter.

Preacher - that would be a proper tip, and has been done for years.

Jeff
NRA Life

 

Is there a significant difference between the 358x444 and the 356W? My sources say they are the same case, other than the .506 vs .514 rim size.

I've yet to determine if there is a "definitive" case specification for 358x444, or if it varies by the manufacturer of the dies and reamer. However, my initial impression was that the 358x444 would be longer than the 356 Win given that the 444 has a trim-to-length of 2.215" vs. the 356 Win's 2.005".

In terms of performance, it would depend on the platform. In my case, the limitations of the frame strength for the TC Contender means that the 358x444 will probably underperform the 356Win in the 336ER given equal barrel lengths (both 20"). I doubt the difference is significant, though, in terms of hunting range/effectiveness.

I found some threads over at Shooters Forum describing case forming for the 307 Win and 356 Win using 444 brass. It appears to be very easy if you buy the Redding Trim/Form die for the 356/358. The procedure is to run the 444 brass through the form die, trim to length, and then FL size with a 356 Win die.

 

In a Contender you might as well go with the standard 35 Rem., no fancy reamers, dies or brass forming needed.
An Encore is another thing.
..

 

In a Contender you might as well go with the standard 35 Rem., no fancy reamers, dies or brass forming needed.
An Encore is another thing.
..

Absolutely! I dont' think the 358x444 offers much over the 35 Rem in a Contender platform. I think the major motiviation for going to wildcats like the 358x444 is to cleanup crooked chambers and poor throats that TC-manufactured barrels are sometimes known for.

My interest in the 358x444 is based purely on the fact that its available here in Canada. Not many people own Contender carbines, so people tend to buy up barrels whenever they can be found. Like the issue with brass it's very difficult/costly to import Contender barrels from makes such as Bullberry and SSK.

 

It's simple guys...buy her a diamond. Girls don't think logically when they see sparklers!

Tom who is single cause he can't afford sparklers and Marlins both ;D

.

"The question is how do I convince my wife that this logic is sound?"


.

 

Silverbow - thanks for that explanation. I had overlookeed the trim length difference. So, indeed, a 356W could be redressed to a 358x444 if one had a chamber that needed some cleaning up or a goofy throat, which seems to happen with the Winchesters.

Jeff
NRA Life

 

I have experimented quite a bit making brass for the 307 and 356 Winchester.
My Winchester does not like rimless cases so it is a two-shooter with rimless cases.
Brass made from the 444 Marlin works very well. It is best to anneal the case necks for long life.

There are several reloading threads on the Beartooth forum where I compared the cases with similar loads.

Here are two links to get you started forming brass with a picture or two. There are other case forming threads on the forum.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=24190&highlight=.307+brass


http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=20822&highlight=.307+brass

 

Brass made from the 444 Marlin works very well. It is best to anneal the case necks for long life.

Hi William,

Thanks for those links --- there's a lot of information contained within and I'll have to spend more time reading them over to make sure I get all the details, but it's a promising start. When you mention annealing the case necks, should this be done before passing the 444 brass through the form/trim die or immediately afterwards and then periodically per normal reloading practices?

Thanks,
Stirling

 

Hi silverbow
in the tenth edition of cartridges of the world the author says the 356 winchester is often said to have thicker case walls but that measurements do NOT support this. As far as I am aware only winchester makes these cases so I would assume that it was Win cases he was measuring. I think the reduced case capacity is the result of the bullet being seated deeper in the case than the 358 win. The 356 win has a shorter OAL to function in the lever action rifles. I also remember reading {somewhere} that the 358 cases work pretty well in Marlins but not as well in winchester....as in some win rifles ok and in some not so well. If you can locate a copy of Cartridges of the world you can check out this info for yourself and come to your own conclusions. The parent round for 358 win brass is 308 win brass......so you might try expanding the neck on some commerical 308 winchester brass { i think I would stay with win brand also} makeing some dummy rounds to see how they feed and go from there. Good luck on your quest for ammo for your 356 win. It is a fine cartridge.

grumpy joe

 

Thank you everyone for your input. I lucked out today... I phoned the store in Ontario about the 358x444 barrel and it turned out to be a TC 35 Rem barrel that had been rechambered. They weren't willing to move on the price, so I passed on the barrel, but on a whim I asked the fellow on the phone if they had any 356 Win brass. He responds, "We've got bags and bags" and I respond, "Please send me two!"

So I have 356 brass on the way! Dies should be easier to find and then I'll be rolling as I already have plenty of 35 cal moulds and bullets from my 35 Rem.

 

Good find on the brass!! My dies are marked 356W/358W, so a set of older 358dies should work for ya if ya can't find any marked 356W. Good luck on your adventure.

Jeff
NRA Life

 

I stumbled across this older thread looking for 356 Win. Brass. My question to those of you with Marlins chambered for 356 Win. - Have you tried 358 Win. brass? If so, does it feed/extract well in your Marlin 356?

T.S.