Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

I always like a bigger, heavier bullet. Did you run the ballistics on the 44 vs the 30-30 out to say 150 yards? Do that and see what it looks like.

If you are concerned, forget the 1894 and get a 444!

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

I don't think the pig would be able to tell any difference between the two. Buy what you want, use good bullets, and put them where they need to go. Study the anatomy of the critter you want to ventilate, and talk to those who have hunted them extensively, they will be able to offer good, proven insight on where to hit them to bring them down cleanly.

The 30-30 offers enhanced penetration over the 44, but big heavy, fat bullets do a lot of damage. Either would serve you well, but if you're looking for an excuse a great reason to buy a 44, I say go for it. 8)

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

I don't know if Paco Kelly is read very much by others but I have read several of his articles. Some think he is great and others think he is full of hot air. Myself, I just look at his writings as that of another writer and as possible information for use myself if I can find supporting material. Anyway as a guy that has no use for muzzle velocity for killing power, here is what he has to say on the subject.

"A better comparison indicator for me, of where a handloaded round is in the scale of killing ability...is to compare it’s standing against other rounds without the over rated muzzle energy figures. If you multiply the velocity times the bullet weight, and then divide by 7000 (number of grains in a lb, it’s the old Keith method) you get a better picture of actual power/killing levels compared to other rounds. 2000 X 275 div 7000 = KS(Killing Scale) of 79 for this 45 long Colt load from the Rossi 1892. A 44 magnum Ruger revolver with a 275 grain (same nose shape) cast WFN bullet at 1400 FPS velocity reaches a level of KS 55, and that’s a heavy handgun load that’s harvests larger medium game very well.

A 30-30 with a 170 gr bullet at 2200 FPS gives a level of power ranking at KS 53.4... ahh yes dear reader, the 44 mag from a long gun really does have more power at 100 yards than a 30-30/170 commercial load. Of course the 44 mag/275 gr. load above from a rifle, at basically the same velocity as the 275 gr./45 long Colt from a rifle has the same killing level potential as the 45 long Colt. There are difficulties with all measuring methods of bullet energy and killing ability since so much more is involved than just velocity and weight...but this works for me when we are comparing the same bullet shape/content and construct with changes in weight or velocity.

The neat thing about this method is you can take the down range velocities all the way out to your longest range and compare them with the down range velocities of other rounds, calibers and see the changes compared to each other. The 45 long Colt at 100 yards has slowed to 1600 FPS and the killing level has dropped to almost KS of 63 from 79. Where the 30-30 load has dropped to 1930FPS to a KS 46 from 53.4.....that should make a few yell ‘foul...can’t be’, but it is! And from my use of these 45 loads in the field for years on large game....I can tell you it is.....! As many gunwriters have stated over the years, a 44 mag or heavy loaded 45 long Colt fired from a rifle is more powerful than a 30-30 at 100 yards....actually they are more powerful than the great 30-30, at a lot further than 100 yards.....

So the next time someone states the 44 mag and 45 long Colt from rifles only has an advantage over the 30-30 under 100 yards...show him the error of his reality. But remember bullet drop with the larger calibers, is more than the 308 calibers ....But that never bothered me....mainly because I started rifle shooting without scopes and learned how to compensate....scopes were far from being seen, much less using them, when we were boys."

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Gohon, that sounds an awful lot like what I've been preaching for many years..........Energy figures are horribly skewed because the velocity is squared. Momentum is a better way of measuring power.

There have been dozens of attempts over the years to quantify Killing Power. There are lots of factors involved besides weight and speed. Bullet shape, sectional density, alloy hardness, nose diameter, meplat dimensions, they all have an effect. I'm doubtful anyone will ever come up with a system that will make it all fit into neat little rows on paper.

Just the variance between a critter grazing peacefully, and one who is on Full Alert when you shoot can make half the difference..........

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

I always like a bigger, heavier bullet. Did you run the ballistics on the 44 vs the 30-30 out to say 150 yards? Do that and see what it looks like.

If you are concerned, forget the 1894 and get a 444!

FWIW,... I agree. I have found that everything the 44mag can do, the 444 can do it better. And I have been a 44mag freak for more decades than I wish to remember. My "better half" has been eying my 1994 every time I express my growing appreciation of the 444. I guess I'll have to find a nice comfy pink sling for when I pass it on!!!

;D

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

huh, i never doubted the 44's ability, but that's some good info! makes me glad i have one

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

TYPO guy,.... my mistake!!!

Fixed.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Elmer always said the only reason for high velocity was to flatten trajectory.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

If ya gunna shootem at 200 yds get a 30-30, otherwise .44 will killem dead.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

The 44 is fine. The 30-30 is fine. If I wanted/needed more I would go with the 45-70 not the 444. Not because I think the 444 is bad, I just like the 45-70 more and ammo, if you have to buy it, is much more easily acquired and with a much greater variety.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Elmer always said the only reason for high velocity was to flatten trajectory.

I'd never heard that quote before, but it rings true to me. As a traditional bow hunter, shot placement and sufficient penetration trump all else... energy, hydrostatic shock, etc., play no role. If you can get an arrow into the bread basket and hit vital organs or arteries, the animal will die quickly and humanely. I apply the same mentality to rifle hunting, and this means that the focus is really on choosing the appropriate bullet for the anticipated impact velocity and becoming familiar enough with the rifle and load to place the shot accurately in a hunting situation.

With so many bullet designs available (both jacketed and cast), finding one that will work at the required velocity (even modest) is almost always possible. And accuracy is really in your hands as a function of spending time working on loads at the range. So in the end, for me, velocity really just does come down to extending the MPBR and doesn't play at all into the killing power of my rifle.

The 44 mag and 30-30 are wonderful cartridges in their own right, and neither will excessively damage meat with the right bullet/load, so I'd feel confident picking whichever one really catches your eye. Choose the right bullet and practice, and you'll be enjoying a fine boar BBQ in no time.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Both calibers will work I am sure!

And if you can not decide between the 44Mag and the 30-30 - Then get the tried and tested caliber famous for dear, bear, and hog killing ability - .35 Remington ! ;D ;D

Cascade Jinx

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Both work just fine. The general rule of thumb I use when going out hunting is if I'm going to be mostly in the woods I take the 44mag, if I am going to be mostly in/around open fields, I take the 336. Can't let either to get too lonely.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Both calibers will work I am sure!

And if you can not decide between the 44Mag and the 30-30 - Then get the tried and tested caliber famous for dear, bear, and hog killing ability - .35 Remington ! ;D ;D

Cascade Jinx

+1

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

As far as the cartridges go--- i'm thinking 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. As there is a difference between an 1894 and a 336 as far as length and weight of gun, this is what I'd make my decision on.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

With iron sights the 1894 is definitely handier and quicker than the 336. If you scope them both they are about equal. My choice would also be based on terrain. The 30-30 for more open country and the 44 for up close and personal. Hard to beat that LE round if you have to reach out there.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Do you have a .44 mag handgun. That would help the descision along. Being able to load cheap pistol bullets for practice is nice too. You could also shoot the .44 Spl. Okay. I'm biased towards the .44

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

My vote is for the heavy slower bullet accurately placed. This is why I have a .44 mag, .45 long colt, 45-70 and a 450 Marlin. But... I also really like my 30-30 Winchester. Killed a nice cow elk with it in January.

I also concur with SilverBow. This same issue has been floating around archery circles since the advent of the compound. Slow heavy arrows out of a recurve/long bow or fast light arrows out of a compound. Like the slow heavy bullets out of my .44/5 calibers, my Black Widow recurve at 187 ft/sec and two blade Zwickey broadheads have taken a lot of game!

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Thompson Center used to claim of their 30-30s in handgun. More energy at 100yds than the .44 has at the muzzle. Go figure. All the paper ballistics in the world does no good at all in the field with one well placed shot.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

Thompson Center used to claim of their 30-30s in handgun. More energy at 100yds than the .44 has at the muzzle. Go figure. All the paper ballistics in the world does no good at all in the field with one well placed shot.

Was that factory or reload ad data?

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

I have never ever shot any living thing with a centerfire rifle of any caliber, that hasn't died in a most expedient manner.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

And I have never ever seen any living thing shot with a rifle of any caliber, that hasn't died in a most expedient manner due to proper shot placement.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

SilverBow, a fellow traditional bowhunter and Marlin enthusiast, has said it really well. The killing ability of a bullet or an arrowhead (power isn't the best word here) depends totally on the physiologic damage done to an animal's vital organs and systems. If a broadhead, which depends entirely on causing bleeding, shot by a 40 lb pull bow can kill a deer within 30 to 40 yards from the point of implact - and it can! - then any of a 44 mag, 30-30, 357, 45, or a whole host of other calibers can certainly do the same thing. The whole issue, in my opinion, is what can the individual hunter use best to get the bullet in the animal's vitals? And at what range? What limitations is the hunter willing to place on himself? What does he most enjoy carrying around and shooting? I have a strong, healthy young friend who shoots whitetails with a 300 magnum, but good grief, who wants to inflict such punishment on himself? He seems to, but I don't understand why. Another friend gave up his 300 a while back because it was too heavy to carry. He now uses a 44 magnum revolver, a 270, or a 30-30 lever action depending on what he wants to carry on a given day.
The words energy and momentum have simple definitions and both depend on both bullet mass and velocity. If you know the value of either of them you can calculate the other provided you know either the mass or the velocity of the bullet. Energy, in joules, is one-half the mass, in kilograms, of the bullet times the square of the velocity, in meters per second. Momentum, measured in kilogram-meters per second,using the same units as above for mass and velocity, is simply mass times velocity. There are English units for all of these quantities, but they are more complicated to use than international (or metric) units. Power, perhaps the most often mis-used term used to identify a physical property in the English language, is the rate at which energy is delivered or converted. It really has no application in this discussion. I hope the physics lesson neither offends nor intimidates anyone, because I have no intent to do either, but when you're talking about physics (the basic rules of nature), clear communication is helped by the accurate use of its terms.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

It's really all about range, if you shoot stuff under 125 yards, I'd go with the 44 mag, If I was hunting at around 200 yards, I'd bring out the 30-30.

 

Re: .44 mag "killing power" vs. .30-30

At 200yds. most 30-30 factory 170grn. loads drop to sub-sonic,.... less than a 1,000 FPS. Not what I would like to hit a large beastee with. ;D

With that being said.

I should mention a incident related to me many years ago,... where a Alaskan Inuit woman killed a world class polar bear with one 22lr shot to its eye. Its tear duct, to be more exact,.... if memory serves me. I believe it was stuffed and now resides in a Nevada casino lobby.

My point?

Shot placement is really all that counts in the real world,......for me.

 

At 200yds. most 30-30 factory 170grn. loads drop to sub-sonic,.... less than a 1,000 FPS. Not what I would like to hit a large beastee with. ;D.

I think we need to clarify the numbers for what constitutes sonic (i.e., Mach 1.0) conditions since the speed of sound is temperature dependent.

At 0 deg F Mach 1.0 is 1,051 ft/sec.

At 100 deg F Mach 1.0 is 1,160 ft/sec.

So, depending on the temp sonic is somewhere between 1,051 and 1,160 ft/sec

The data for just one 170 grain sample can be found here:

.30-30 Win.

From the above information we get the following distance/velocity/Mach profile for a 100 deg F day:

distance in yds/projectile velocity in fps/Mach number of projectile

100/1,895/Mach = 1.63
200/1,619/Mach = 1.39
300/1,381/Mach = 1.19
400/1,191/Mach = 1.02
500/1,061/Mach = 0.91 (see note)

NOTE: if however we have a 0 deg F day the velocity at 500 yds is still supersonic because the speed of sound at 0 deg F is 1,051 and the velocity at 500 yds exceeds this at 1,061 fps

So, from the above the projectile exceeds sonic even beyond 400 yds

In fact, from the standard Hornady ballistic tables virtually EVERY grain of 30-30 is still supersonic up to more than 300 yds so I am wondering where you got your data? Also, now that you know these numbers doesn't this change your opinion of the 30-30?