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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
The Ideal catalogue of 1929 shows the Ideal 42498 and the hollowpoint 42499 for the .44 WCF.

Perhaps this will help.

https://www.riverjunction.com/Ideal-42498-Bullet-Mold_p_3448.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-LY...-R-/183197030619?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

Thanks Owen, I have the newer 427098 as well as the Accurate 43-215C but not the older 42798. Not sure what the difference is between the 098 and the 98.

What I really would like is to try an exact replica of the early Winchester swaged 200gr bullet or a modern replica of the early Winchester tools with the square grooves and the appearance of the lack of a forward "driving band" like the 427098. The original Winchester mild looks more like the swaged bullets below from John Kort's photo.

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Rock

I believe this to be a photo Jon Kort uploaded years ago showing original mid to late 1880's 44WCF Winchester bullets and a later 44-40 bullet...maybe UMC?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Here is another one of John's photos. One difference I may have notice between the 427098 and the 24798 molds is that the earlier 42798 forward driving band might not be so wide giving an appearance after the crimp that it is not there. John sent me some of those 42798 bullets years ago to try in the clear ballistics gel. My results were much like the original above using pure lead in this particular test.



Calipers Measuring instrument Tool


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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I have struggled for a few years trying to put my OCD behind me when it comes to the original 44WCF bullet profile. Two of my favorite available bullet profiles are John's (#1)43-215C and Lyman's current (#2)427098 sized to .429. These two closely replicate Winchester's early swaged lead bullets of 1873. Modern Big Lube, Hollowpoint, Magma and other bullets do well but just don't quite settle my stomach. I have always been a huge fan of the original profile. I decided to take a trip down a "bunny trail" for a while and get back to the enjoyment of good ole black powder loads. This always brings out the good ole lead bullets...but...gets my OCD cooking!

Noted above in reply #5, John's photo, the early Winchester swaged bullets "have the look" but do not have a forward driving band making a smooth transition from casing to bullet. The early Winchester molds do not appear to have a driving band either. I lost count but at some point, Winchester bullet molds added a slight and looks to be a tapered forward driving band. Eventually Ideal/Lyman had a prominent forward driving band. This leads to a harsh transition from the case to the bullet, something I have never liked. For years I used the Lee Factory Crimp Die to form a crimp on the driving band rather than in front of it. This aids in a better looking profile and didn't really seem to hinder performance. My bullet castings and handloads always hindered my load performances...lol I cast up some 43-215C and 427098 bullets the other night. I sized them down to .429 since I dont have a .427 sizer. I loaded up a caseload of reloder 7 (I'll get to the black powder later on ;-). I seated the bullets down to where the case mouth was flush with the edge of the driving band. This took little effort with fingers and pushing slightly on the wood bench. I wanted to feel the compression and it was not much at all. Not even enough to damage the powder. I tried a few different AOLs to were the tip of the driving band was visible and flush. I used nothing but a Redding 44-40 profile crimp series A. The LFC die is harsh and damages the case mouth. Note the LFC profile crimp damage left on the 43-215C cartridge mouth from a previous load. I also used a tad bit of bullet lube since this is a fairly hard crimp. The single 43-215C was left over so I threw it in the batch....center of photo. I like to crimp the 43-215C just before the crimp groove giving it an early 1873 appearance with a visible groove showing. It is very enjoyable going to the range and shooting without taking notes...but I can't stand it, I gotta go back and document.

The below photo shows the results.

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Winchester New Model of 1873'

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1875 Winchester catalog

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427098 AOL ranges from from 1.600" to 1.614" and cycle fine in the Uberti Winchester 73'. Unfortunately the 43-216C AOL of 1.627 with that crimp will only cycle in the Marlin 1894CB. A caseload of RL-7 and the 43-215C as well as the 427098 is a bit much for the 73'...estimated 13,826 psi CIP, (15,954 max). I will consider it max loads....too many variables.

It's time to load'em up with some good ole Swiss BP

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Finally got the 44 cartridge. Not exactly what I expected but it is the profile I always preferred. I was a little surprised it matched Remington's JSP more than any other bullet.

Case Length = 1.311
AOL = 1.620

Product Ammunition Bullet Gun accessory Metal

Original Unheadstamped pre-1884, (maybe pre-1800) Winchester factory swaged bullet with exposed groove. This is certainly different from the WRA 44 WCF headtsmped cartridges I have seen. (note the different case lengths)

Metal Brass

Amongs't the unheadstamped and WRA headstamped cases that I have.

Metal Brass Ammunition Hardware accessory Gun accessory

The head is a bit rounded but doesn't seem to be as rounded as the ones I already have...certainly not flat like the WRA headstamped cases.

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Obviously not a Lyman 427098 profile.

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Bullet profile comparisons.
 

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Savvy Jack,
Have you looked at the RCBS mold #.44-200-FN (82036)? It looks pretty close. I just received this mold and haven't had a chance to cast any bullets yet. It does have a crimping groove, so should be applicable to both white and black powder.
I've wanted a mold to cast as close to the original as possible and this one looked pretty good to me. I haven't made up my mind about using Holy Black in my '73 yet (Sharps for sure, and that's ALL she gets and my 500 gr. Government bullets), but haven't gone down that road (yet) with the lever gun.
You might want to check that mold out.

WYT-P
Skyhunter
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Savvy Jack,
Have you looked at the RCBS mold #.44-200-FN (82036)? It looks pretty close. I just received this mold and haven't had a chance to cast any bullets yet. It does have a crimping groove, so should be applicable to both white and black powder.
I've wanted a mold to cast as close to the original as possible and this one looked pretty good to me. I haven't made up my mind about using Holy Black in my '73 yet (Sharps for sure, and that's ALL she gets and my 500 gr. Government bullets), but haven't gone down that road (yet) with the lever gun.
You might want to check that mold out.

WYT-P
Skyhunter
Skyhunter,

The 44-200-FN doesn't have the profile I wanted but should be a fine bullet!!!!!

I was going to wait until I casts some...but Accurate Molds is making me a custom mold with the measurements I sent. I should receive the mold in a week or so.

I wanted an original Winchester profile. It is not that I am trying to "re-invent" a possible inferior design, but sometimes new is not always better. This has also turned into a new hobby and gives me something to do. I enjoy it a lot.

As most know, John Kort dissected, re-primed, re-lubed, used the same powder, case and bullet of about 50 vintage 1880s-90s WRA cartridges. he then shot 40 of them into a 4" circle at 100 yards. These of course were Winchester factory swaged bullets.

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Winchester 1875 Catalog

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Winchester 1875ish Bullets

It is obvious in the photos there are two grease grooves and no crimp groove or acute forward driving band. I may be able to touch on this in detail in a few weeks ;-)

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John Korts pulled bullets. These are the swaged factory bullets with little to no "acute" driving band OR it was small enough to be squeezed down during the crimping. However, it is worthy to note that they are not heeled and will telescope down into the case with smokeless powder if the crimp is poor.

Rock Metal

The bullet I have is from an unheadstamped "Older" cartridge than John's and has an obvious "Heel" design. The measurements confirm it. The measurements are smaller than what we use today so when I sent Tom the measurements, I increased the the diameter to .427 rather than .421. I increased the forward heeled flange from .4225 to .429. I have no idea how this bullet design will perform, especially with my novice casting skills but I will enjoy the process!!!!

Accurate Molds has the bullet profile on their website, but again...I have yet to try it. It should work well with Black Powder. One might not be able to shoot 30 rounds without fowling but I don't plan on it more than once...hehehehe Also, smokeless should work fine because the bullet has a slight heel to help keep it from telescoping back into the case much like Ed Harris's 43-200Q design. With the flange being .429, a normal roll crimp die could be slight but also not interfere with the .429 flange. The 43-208A also has a slight flat forward driving band. Soft lead should expand nicely with black powder or Reloder 7.
Accurate Molds: Custom Bullet Molds

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Accurate Molds 43-208
 

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Savvy_Jack,
Your project definitely sounds interesting and I think has lots of "merit", especially for those seeking "to do like we used to do", if you catch my drift.
I look forward to a report on your progress with the "new" old bullet!

WYT-P
Skyhunter
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Savvy_Jack,
Your project definitely sounds interesting and I think has lots of "merit", especially for those seeking "to do like we used to do", if you catch my drift.
I look forward to a report on your progress with the "new" old bullet!

WYT-P
Skyhunter
Thanks Skyhunter....even if it doesnt work, it will be fun finding out!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Tried and True, Lyman 427098 [email protected] .4285. Brass not resized. Bullet finger seated and crimped with a Redding Profile Crimp Series A die on top of a caseload of RL-7 (May exceed max pressures...44-40 for Category II rifles and 44 Magnum frame revolvers)

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