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I'm always comparing case dimension drawings and asking myself, "what if we were to...". The 45-70 modern case is as strong as any gun chambered for it. The 1895 action is not quite a Ruger #1 but is a repeater, handy, reliable, and suitable for dangerous game. It's action is no wimp either. The 45-70 case is slightly fatter than 30-06 at the base and in between in length between it and the .308 Winchester. It would seem only natural that necked down,to any of these calibers may well produce an efficient, flatter shooting cartridge with plenty of oomph* and additional range. What say y'all? AC

(*that is an external ballistician's technical term, trust me)
 

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I'm guessing as old as the 45-70 is all the possibilities have been tried. The 33Win, 348Win and 40-65Win are already factory rounds. The 375 Scovil and Alaskan are fairly popular as well. It's hard to reinvent the wheel when you are 100 years late to the party.
 

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What you can do is dream. So, the 40-65 is a necked down 45-70. What happens if; you blow it out and give it a nice pretty shoulder (to cry on when.....) can't find the pic I wanted. Maybe later....

Jeff
 

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Another case is the 38-56 improved-it works pretty well but there is not much selection for bullets in jacketed. a lot of choices in cast bullets though. Mine is based on a .375 barrel and can move 220 grain hornady bullets too fast for use on game-they come apart when pushed hard. About 2300 fps muzzle velocity is about it on close shots-if you are shooting farther they would likely hold together better.Other wise custom bullets are the order of the day or cast of course.
 

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If you shorten the chamber of about any belted magnum up to about .458 groove dia. (.532 OD belt, not the big weatherbys) at a point where the new chamber mouth is about .505" you can form one of the 45-70 family cases to fit this shortened magnum chamber. For the longer magnum chambers you might need a 45-100 or longer piece of brass.

Here is one example. A friend took a 375 H&H takeoff barrel and shortened the chambered and used this barrel to make a 375 Rimmed barrel liner for an H&R Handi rifle. To make dies you have take the dies for the original chambering and shorten them to match your new chamber.

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I wonder what we could get out of a .223/45-70? 40 grain Flat Nose at how many feet per second?
One would have a tremendously over bored cartridge, just like the several dozen other large case cartridges that have been necked down to 22 caliber over the last 50 year or more period of time.

There are several cases way stronger than a 45 70 case, if a large capacity round is the goal. Large capacity cases, are already capable of driving bullets faster than they will stand, without coming apart, down range, or leaving half the bullet in the bore, in the form of copper fouling.

Fouling issues seem to me to be the limits, rather than the case capacity or powder lacking to get it to max velocitys. Even running a 17 Fireball, at top end, will leave a bore pretty much totally copper plated after about shot number 20
I see this new WSM round, claiming 4300 or what ever, I have no clue as how they get away with it for more than about 5 or maybe 10 shots.

Guys shooting the Swift and several others, havent been able to really whip the fouling problem, but I suppose some new magic is always out there waiting to appear?
 

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the 348 win was & still is an awesome cartridge! not a lot of bullets for it though. i was surprised to see hornady LR in that cartridge. necked down 45-70?
 

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A friend of mine who builds custom rifles has built a .338 single shot that uses necked down 45-70 brass.. He also built a .375 single that uses 45-100 brass (it is cut down a bit in length). We have both been talking about necking a 45-70 down to 30 cal but the idea hasn't gone anywhere.

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Greetings
Just found this thread again.
To add to the caliber .41 / 45-70 idea JES Reboring has a cartridge he calls the 405 JES. It is the 444 Marlin shortened a few thousanths and tapered down to seat a .412 bullet. It would loose a bit of capacity over a true necked down 45-70 seating a .412 bullet but has the basic idea. Very useful to a caliber .41 shooter wanting a powerhouse in a cheap old rusty bore 336 Marlin. It will not replace a 444 Marlin but sure can be had for many $'s less. Especailly if you are already well stocked in caliber 41 molds.
Mike in Peru
 

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Happy New Year, Mike!

Re: the 405JES - I've read some on this and have yet to find a completed project. Do you know of one? I use .410 in my 40-82 (86Win) and being and old BP rifle, it stays with my 41mag Marlin for performance, just a different fun factor. In a modern steel version, the 40-65 would deliver all the performance my shoulder could stand. Just another nut for a real 40 Caliber, as these all are....

Jeff
 

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I'm with Sweetwater on this topic. I've seen several guys talk about making a 405JES. However, I've yet to see the results. I think somewhere on MO RanchDog started a 405JES project, but gave up half way through. My favorite is the 40-65WCF. I've got two of them now and it is just a good all around cartridge based on the 45-70Govt.

I'm tempted to sell my beautiful Pedersoli 45-70 Sharps and get another 40-65WCF. and it's the purdyest gun I own.
 

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Greetings
I have a 405 JES sitting in storage up north there. Started out as a 30-30 336 with a rusty bore. JES did the bore and chamber. There was no need to modify my 336 to function reliably with short nosed cast bullets up to 265 grains when OAL was closely adhered to.
My goal was a caliber 41 rifle that would propel a 350 grain cast bullet to at least 1800 fps. The mold I settled on is a 360 grain .412 NOE FNGC.
The only problem I came across is the ejection port of this particular 336 was not cut as far forward nor as tall as other 336's I have. That made ejection of a loaded round a trial but possible. The easy remidy was to open the bullet portion of the ejection port to accomidate the long NOE bullet.
I use primarily slow type powder under heavy cast bullets. The slowest I tried was 4350. The fastest was 1680. 1680 naturally gave the highest velocity (and recoil) with good accuracy (3.5 inches 100 yards). I have not decided yet which powder is the "best all around" as I spent the bulk of my available range time with this rifle working with the 360 NOE.
So with just a little time to work with this 405 JES I think it is the best available inexpensive caliber 41 heavy thumper available at this time. I have $373 total invested in the rifle. It has all the caracter of a well used 336 that I will never fear bumping, scratching or hunting with. I have no fear the 360 grain NOE will not take care of any 400 pound critter I will ever encounter. That is what I was looking for and I think this wildcat will do it easily.
On a sideline, I am considering sending in my 414 Supermag 336 to be rechambered to 405 JES. The 405 JES easily propels 265 grain bullets to the 1850 fps and I expect can get to 2200 fps. But it still is nice to have a lever rifle that fires the same cartridge as my favorite revolver caliber... 414 Supermag.
Mike in Peru
 

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Thanks Mike for the write up and info. It sounds like a serious thumper in a small 336 sized package. You must have gotten one heck of a deal on the donor rifle.
 

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I like those heavy 41 caliber bullets in my 40-82. IF/when I find a suitable 40-65, I will add one to my corral. Can't say enough about the love affair with the 40's. Every cartridge I've seen that had a "41" in it has been a 40 Caliber. 40 caliber bores basically take 41 caliber bullets. Just like the 30's. 30 caliber bores and basically 31 caliber bullets. Yup, just adds to the confusion on "names". I like the concept of your 414 Supermag in a 336. Who did this one for you? Too many choices, too little time! LOL

Jeff
 
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