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Where Are Marlin's Lever Guns

5K views 34 replies 24 participants last post by  cds4570 
#1 ·
There is a somewhat optimistic article in "Rifle Sporting Arms Journal" regarding the factory retooling and re-blueprinting to fix the quality woes. Author promises to review the "new" New York guns once they are released to production. :questionmark:
 
#3 ·
Okay, you're cynical. Better now?

I'm from Missouri. We practically invented cynical, and I agree with you. Remington is going to need ten years of nearly-perfect products to undo the damage they've done to their own brand, and the others they've ruined. We may eventually forgive them, but we will NEVER forget the junk they've foisted upon an unsuspecting, (formerly) loyal public.

Here's a thought.......there are over 53,000 members on this forum, and if each of us could scrape together $100, we could raise over five million dollars. Some folks could afford a lot more than that, and together it might be enough to buy the Marlin name back from Freedom Group/Remington, or maybe we could just call it the JM Levergun Company, and hire as many true craftsmen as we could find, plus a few engineers who know, love and understand Marlins. And there WOULD be a custom shop!

Then maybe Mossberg and the other imitators would stop making plastic-stocked 30-30's and let the pros show them how it's done.

Okay, my pipe dream is over, I'm going home soon to fondle my JM's and load some ammo. But it was nice while it lasted. :embarassed:
 
#13 ·
Because it's been sullied beyond repair, thanks to Remington.

What might work for five or ten million dollars would be JUST a custom shop, making Marlins and Remlins into what they should have been before they got out the door, with an emphasis on quality work, custom stocks, hand-cut checkering, and guns chambered in whatever reasonable calibers the customer wanted. There are a lot of weird people (like me) that would pay handsomely for an 1894 chambered in oh, I don't know, maybe 256 Winchester Magnum, which would only involve a barrel swap, the standard 1894C would not need anything else. Part of the romance of the levergun is the older and "obsolete" calibers they are capable of handling, and even some newer calibers with moderate pressure ceilings. Think of the possibilities........different chamberings, with the option of an octagonal barrel, or semi-octagon, special sights, there would be a lengthy list of options. Prices would be typical of custom work, maybe less, but a lot of folks would love to be able to have those options available!

There is always a desire for things like 356's, 358's, 40-65's, you name it. The basic design mandates a realistic pressure ceiling of 40,000 CUP or so, unless certain parts are beefed up, and once you get into the bigger bore sizes, the margin of safety diminishes. But how many people would love to see a Marlin in .327 Federal (a modernized 32-20, if you will) or a 7-30 Waters, 38-40, 44-40, maybe even 10mm.

I know, I'm dreaming. I've begged, whined and rambled about a Marlin Custom shop since the days of Marlin Talk, a dozen years ago. But I still think there's a market for such a thing, and I know Marlin shooters would be willing to shell out the bucks to get exactly what they want, if only it was available.

I still want an 1894 in .256 WM, and if I live long enough, I might eventually have it done, just because the world needs more innovation and a place for dreamers like me to plant our fantasies.

So you can stop dragging me back to the real world.............I don't like it here!
 
#7 ·
Marlins quality started dropping off in the late 1980's, so the craftsman are all gone, if a company hires folks who reflect there morals and ethnics, with the right management, that would be a great start! Marlin failed with leadership, they through under the Bus, their namesake cartridges, and they did not know there customer!
 
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#8 ·
I think "papajohn" is on the right track; it's about market share and hopefully Remington has learned a lesson. If the gun writing authors begin penning positive reviews of the "new" Marlin lever gun the die-hard fans on this forum will begin buying that rifle. American made lever guns is a good market to capture.
 
#9 ·
$5 million wouldn't be a drop in the bucket to buy all the marlin patents and equipment
owned by Remington.
I used to be a plant supervisor for a machine shop and there is a lot to it.
Even if you could buy the brand, setup the equipment and get a building sorted out.
You'd be far better off building a clone than using the Marlin name depending on
what's on the patents.
Quality costs money and there is no way a small shop could produce quality
rifles for $500 or less. Remember, manufacturers sell at wholesale prices to
distributors. Your new Marlin clone would end up costing $1,500 by the time it got
into the publics hands, at a minimum. Time delays would be long and you'd still
have people saying a JM was better.
 
#12 ·
You've got a better understanding than most of the cost of doing business these days.

Additionally, imagine the utilities required to run a big milling and assembly operation.

Imagine the insurance costs, Keeper, Legal and Liability.

Imagine the logistical issues involved simply in securing the raw materials necessary these days.

All of that before you ever start trying to find qualified people to run the machines and do the assembly work ... they would all want over $20.00 an hour.

I've friends with two local, well-known nationally respected rifle makers and they've both told me in the past that it would be next to impossible to start-up a levergun manufacturing facility from scratch in the U.S. these days and make it profitable. And that, while we surround ourselves with levergunners on this forum, levergun sales still make up less than 1% of all firearms sales in the world each year and that 1% is already being heavily competed for by existing, well-establish manufacturers.

Where there is money to be made in our particular market is in customizing. Fine tuning. Balance and blue-printing existing rifles.
 
#14 ·
I don't know what all the fuss is about ? I bought a new Marlin 1895G last month and it's made right and shoot's right. Well fitted and finished! It shoots great. Made better than some of the 1980 rifles we have and shots better than our 1895 with a micro-groove barrel. I am very pleased with my new Marlin.
 
#19 ·
Not everyone has had your experience bandolier. I just bought a new 1895GS last month too. In the process, I rejected the other 2 GS rifles the dealer had because one had canted and misaligned sights and the opening of the loading port was as rough as a single cut mill file. The other rejected gun I could not close the lever at all about 1 out of every 5 to 8 cycles. The wood on every gun, including the one I bought was not well-fitted at all and the checkering was just a rough mess hardly distinguishable as even being intended to be checkering. Several of the blued guide guns I looked had had similar problems.

Was at the same store last week and heard a guy talking to the clerk about sights being misaligned on a rifle he was looking at and complaining about the terrible wood and checkering. I went over, and sure enough was an 1895S that the clerk said was from a new batch that just arrived. One of the owners was laughing about the poor quality they are seeing and recommended that the guy look for a JM unless he wants to work on it to bring it up to par as I had to do with mine.

The one I bought was extremely rough inside and the lever plunger angle cuts were too shallow that made closing the lever very difficult. I smoothed mine up, filed the plunger angles and lightened the spring. The gun will shoot into just a little more than 1" at 50 yds so far with old ammo so it will shoot but the wood still looks like sh** and I will have to sand and refinish and refit the wood myself too.

You got lucky bandolier and that is what the fuss is all about.
The majority... yes the majority of the rifles I examined had serious flaws that should not exist in rifles costing upwards of $750 to $800 or so. I had previously rejected all (5) of the GS rifles that the closest Cabelas had in stock. Most had canted sights and action problems as well as the terrible wood. To sum up, of the 8 rifles I got my hands on for possible purchase, only one was a gun that I could make work by investing a lot of time and labor in.
 
#15 · (Edited)
A parallel, situation exists in the Savage 99 world. Savage is willing to re-introduce the 99 when modern production methods, and customer demand meet and create a profitable environment for the manufacturer. This day may never arrive, but it at least its being looked at..

Can just imagine a newly produced 99C, somebody is going to want a 30 round mag for it.
 
#16 ·
I ran a 40 man shop for a lot of years. I had learned a lot running my fathers machine shop
before that.
You could make a nice little startup for 5-10 million and it would produce quality lever actions.
But you'd have to train people as well as pull in older skilled workers.
You'd have to be small enough to avoid hassles with OSHA and Unions.
You'd still have more orders than you could fill in 2 years time so people would complain about that.
It's tougher now to be a gun manufacturer than it was 20 years ago.

I just wonder how long it would be before you saw a return on your investment.
I'm guessing quite a long time.
 
#31 ·
A team of good accountants could project that out for you, determine how many of what units you would have to sell to break even under a specific set of conditions and on from there. Of course no one knows what those conditions are actually going to turn out to be. So still a big risk. At least it gives you something to gage the risk by. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.
 
#20 ·
Brian Pierce said the same thing. "They have retooled and fit and finish on the sample rifles was as good if not better than when Marlin last produced the original product."
But they admitted that when they first took over Marlin and invited assorted scribes to come look at the product, they handed the writers Pre-Remington produced Marlins as sample. The resulting factory produced rifles were, as we all have see, "wanting". Having done this once and confessing it, I would expect they would have it together this time.
Lets hope this is correct and good product starts to flow again soon. But in the meanwhile I won't hold my breath......
 
#24 · (Edited)
I am buying new unless I find an older model that looks like new and feeds and functions correctly AND cost less than a new rifle. I don't place any added value on jm rifles. And if you take a poll of all the members on this forum I am far from being the only one who is looking for a new rifle. Look at all the threads about people who are happy with their new Remlin.
Never seems to end. 10 years ago I was told not to buy a new 39A as the older ones were better.
 
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#25 ·
To be fair the JM models are really nice but some of them had problems as well.
My biggest gripe with the older models is they are usually 2-4x more than a new
one. For me that's a bad deal.
Some areas seem to have no clue what their gun is worth and others they
over value it.
Buy what you like and fix or mod what you need to, to make it your gun.
JM or Remlin the choice is up to you just check over carefully whatever you buy.
 
#26 ·
I actually do not feel that Many if Any of the Mass Firearms producers are putting out a Quality Product. But that is as I have stated before. The public has learned over time to pay more and get less and be happy with what they receive. If the Public demanded better quality per dollar spent then things would change but alas they are only getting worse I am afraid.

But as another posted in a nutshell said. That the Older Generation that was used to receiving a Quality Product are only getting older or passing on. Thus these people are no longer really purchasing a large number of Firearms and demanding Quality. Now we have a younger Generation that is mostly new to Firearms and do not really know or understand what Quality really is. So they accept what is available as they do not know the difference.
 
#27 ·
Wouldn't Browning be classified as a Mass Firearms producer? They're certainly not a custom shop. Their quality control is pretty darn good. Maybe they just haven't been infested with Ivy League Business School grads who "save" companies with their gimmicky fad-management "tools."
 
#30 ·
Are they going to be made in Huntsville? I'll be shocked if they move the Marlin operation down there. It's a great building for manufacturing though, great location too. I've got a couple of friends with Clancy & Theys who are working that project and they hope to have it ready to go inside of twenty-four months. No idea what's going in there yet, but I seriously doubt it is going to be any component of our beloved Marlins.

As are the new Winchesters. Since they started to make them again in S.C. they have been very good. Much improved over the products being turned out in Conn. at the end..
Amen to that. Everything produced at the FN Plant out on Clemson Road in Columbia is high quality stuff. The M70s coming out of there are as good, if not better, than the famed pre-64s.
 
#32 ·
Let me state right up front I don't proclaim to be a firearms expert but I think I am a a pretty damn good manufacturing expert. Let me give my take on the entire thing in a nutshell.

Remington buys out Marlin. Someone for some reason decides to move the manufacturing (cost, politics, business environment, .....) They decide to move the equipment but not the people. They move everything, Remington engineer says oh sure we know how to run a xyz mill. He sets it up and starts running but gets bad results, why? Marlin engineer doesn't know it as xyz mill he knows it as Betsy and because of the age and worn components has to make adjustments to compensate to get good results. Remington takes a black eye and then decides to upgrade all of the equipment. Perfect right? Well a lot of the time companies don't like to get rid of partially finished assemblies or parts and might use them. Lots of times you don't retool all at once, the line is kept running and machines are replaced one by one. Why? Because manufacturing equipment (the big non prosumer stuff anyway) can't just be bought off of the shelf. There are lead times which can run from a few months to over a year.

When trying to move or change manufacturing from an artisan shop issues like these are to be expected. There was a ton of tribal knowledge from these guys. Meaning there is a lot they knew but it wasn't standardized, written down and easily transferable. You needed old Bob to run the Betsy mill or it wasn't going to produce. There can be very high quality items made, you just can't mess with the process.

I bought a 1895 not to long ago and all of the warning signs were not there. I had 4 identical ones to choose from in the gun shop and they were all identical. Fit and finish looked and felt great to me. I think fit and finish are coming back but I can tell you it is going to take quite a while to get over the black eye they got from this. Keep in mind though that ALL manufacturing works on a bell curve. Most items are going to be fine but no matter how high quality or meticulous the shop they are going to have some crap come out. Now quality control should catch that but the tail end of the curve is still there. On the other hand no matter how terrible a shop is there are going to be the times the stars line up and they make the perfect item. It is all just part of the process.

If you did want to create a start up you would need to find out what your critical mass is. Meaning at what point do you make things yourself versus outsourcing components and how many. Sometimes it is better to make some things yourself and you can contract out to get other items made. There needs to be a cost analysis and a rate of return on each item with designated payback times. (If we buy this mill and we expect X sales, the mill and overhead will pay for itself in Y months. There is some time Y that is the decision point. Payback longer than Y means outsource and under means do it in house.) As mentioned before I won't even go into the HR side of costs, that is its own spiderweb.

Do keep in mind that quality costs. People a lot of times forget that back in their father's or grandfather's day things were a bigger chunk of your wage. Sure it was a quality item (which you could argue the fog of years covered a lot of crap that used to be made. Only the good items got to be old items argument.) and it really lasted but when you scale it up to today's dollars, buyers would be a little more shy about buying an item.
 
#33 ·
I remember when DEC (Digital Equipment) bought up the machine shop that made all
their field service tools for their mainframes.
Same situation as described above. No prints and they worked from memory.
Our shop had to backward engineer all their parts which took some doing.
So just buying the shop doesn't give you the end result just as vsteel says.

Made a lot of money from DEC over the years and their machine shop was mostly idle.

I think Marlin was more like this than people think.
Gun making is as much art as it is science.
 
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