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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just got an 1894 CB II Ltd with the 24" bbl and think it would be great for some big ole hogs but I'd prefer something cast and a little bigger than 240+/- grains if ya know what I mean ! ? ! ? !

Anybody shoot heavier than 240-class bullets from their rifle with good success? Mine has the Ballard-style rifling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I realize that the 240-class bullets will handle 99% of all hunting needs here in the US but isn't there anyone using the heavies iut there ? !! ? :shock: :eek:
 

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Bucolic Buffalo

You forgot to mention what caliber your rifle is. I have that rifle in .44 mag and can shoot anything up to and including 300 grain bullets well. anything lager won't feed from the tube because the bullets are to long. I've been told by my gunsmith that you'd have to make adjustments to the rifle to get the longer bullets to feed but you would lose the ablity to feed .44 specials.
 

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I would be very interested to hear some first-hand experience here too. I have the same rifle and would like to try some 300, but Buffalo Bore claims the the twist ratio in Marlin .44 mag rifles is too slow to stabilize anything much bigger than 270 grains. This disclaimer is listed under their 340 grain +P+ loads. http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#44P

Interestinly, there is no disclaimer under their 300 and 305 grain loads listed right above, so they must work to some degree.
Matt
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Bucolic Buffalo

Bucolic Buffalo said:
You forgot to mention what caliber your rifle is. I have that rifle in .44 mag and can shoot anything up to and including 300 grain bullets well. anything lager won't feed from the tube because the bullets are to long. I've been told by my gunsmith that you'd have to make adjustments to the rifle to get the longer bullets to feed but you would lose the ablity to feed .44 specials.
Sorry, Bucolic Buffalo, mine is a .44 Mag/Spl and I, too, would like to keep the ability to use .44 Spls. I guess topping out at 300 grain loads is what is prescribed in modifying the action to accept longer bullets/cartridges unless one wants to loose the .44 Spl ability.

Too Bad !!!!!!!!!!! Such potential with the heavier class of bullets ! ! !
 

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CB,
I've been using Cast Performance 320 gr. gas checked bullets, and they've fed reliably in my 1894P. They make short work of deer.
Don
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Fantastic, Big Blue! Do they do OK grouping or doesn't the slow rate of twist seem to affect the CP 320s you use ? ? ? I love the idea of a gas check too vs plain based!
 

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Anyone try the 270-gr Gold Dot SP bullets?
They work well out of a handgun.
The bonded core and heavier weight make them pretty good penetrators (not as good as hardcast, as they do expand), but might still be in the "stabilization range" of the 1984.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I've always been a fan of the GDs out of hand guns. They might work well for thinner-skinned game like Whitetails but I would think the ease of expansion they have would be a deterent to deep penetration in heavy muscle and bone ! ! ! ! ! !
 

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knerr

I read an article about the twist rate. I'll have to find the link and post it later. what destableizes the bullet is the length of the bullet not the weight. After about 300 grains the bullets start to get to long. I've also read post on other sites that have commented that shooting bullets up and including 300 grain one out of the marlins shoot with no problems.

My rifle is a better shooting rifle than I am. (I hate to admit that i don't get out to practice enough)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Bucolic Buffalo said:
knerr

" . . .I've also read post on other sites that have commented that shooting bullets up and including 300 grain one out of the marlins shoot with no problems.
I sure hope so ! ! ! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Bucolic Buffalo said:
knerr My rifle is a better shooting rifle than I am. (I hate to admit that i don't get out to practice enough).
That's me, too! :oops:
 

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What is the Max OAL for a 44 mag cartridge in a Marlin 1894?

I have some Hornady 265g FP interlock bullets that my Hornady Manual (3rd Edition) states would be 1.650" OAL.
 
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I have an 1894PG in .44 Mag. Page 1 of the Owners Manual states Minimum OAL as 1.535" and Maximum as 1.610".
I've only used 240gr JHP but am going to track down some heavier ones and see how they go.

Feral_Goz
 

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CapeBuff said:
I just got an 1894 CB II Ltd with the 24" bbl and think it would be great for some big ole hogs but I'd prefer something cast and a little bigger than 240+/- grains if ya know what I mean ! ? ! ? !

Anybody shoot heavier than 240-class bullets from their rifle with good success? Mine has the Ballard-style rifling.
Have you tried 240 cast, or just jacketed? Long ago, I used to shoot a Remington and CCI downloaded 240 grain lead load. They were about 1000fps, if I remember. Man, they were no slouch....putting them up at rifle fps with a GC and the hogs should not feel any pain, I'd say. Try a box of the Federal 300s......they hit almost as hard as Garretts 310. Then you can see if you want to go heavier.

If this does not work out for you, please sell me the rifle :)
 

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Anonymous said:
I have an 1894PG in .44 Mag. Page 1 of the Owners Manual states Minimum OAL as 1.535" and Maximum as 1.610".
I've only used 240gr JHP but am going to track down some heavier ones and see how they go.

Feral_Goz
Thank you Feral_Goz. I got my 70s vintage 1894 at a garage sale :D without a manual... I was hoping someone would have one handy.

Thanks again
 

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Bucolic Buffalo,
Thanks for the info. That makes sense. If you can find the link to that article that would be some good reading, it sounds like.

Matt
 

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This old post on twist rates was on Marlin Talk and I saved it, I believe it is also posted on the reference forum.

JIMinNYC
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Member # 6634 posted 12-27-2002 06:34 PM

Twist Rates
On another thread, I was tipped off to an article on barrel twist in a gun magazine by Gunjunkie. Since then I have done some further research. The original article was in the January issue of American Rifleman on page 30. It credits a Sir George Greenhill with developing the formula T x L = 150 for estimating the proper relationship of bullet length to barrel twist. This looks really simple until you find out that the L is the length of the slug in bullet diameters, not in inches & T is the twist of the barrel in bullet diameters, not inches. Since they didn’t take the time to convert the formula into inches, I will do it here so that we can all have numbers to look at that actually mean something to us. I’ll leave the algebra derivations out unless someone wants me to post them, but this is what it comes down to:
The proper Twist in inches = 150 x caliber diameter x caliber diameter / Length of bullet in inches
Or for a .224 diameter bullet that is 3/4 (.75) of an inch long
Twist in inches = (150) x (.224) x (.224) / (.75)
Twist = a shade over 10 (or 1:10)
Also
The proper bullet length in inches = 150 x caliber diameter x caliber diameter / Twist in inches
Or in the case of a .223 Remington with a 1:12 twist like a NEF Handi-rifle:
Best bullet length in inches = (150) x (.224) x (.224) / 12
Best length = .627 (5/8 inch)
Assuming that Sir George’s formula speaks the truth, in the case of a .224 diameter bullet, the following twists would prefer the following bullet lengths:
Twist Bullet Length
1:7 – 1.075 inch
1:9 - .836 inch
1:10 - .753 inch
1:12 - .627 inch
1:14 - .538 inch
I pulled some .223 ammo apart & measured the following bullet lengths:
SS-109 green tip penetrater core M855 ball - .900 inch long
55gr FMJ M193 Ball - .730 inch long
56gr soft point pulled from Ultramax reload - .690 inch
50 gr Hornady soft point - .655 inch
I did some scrounging around after this & came up with the following info from various sources:
* The Greenhill Formula is a simplified method for determining mathematically the amount of spin necessary to stabilize a bullet. It was worked out in 1879 by Sir Alfred George Greenhill who was a Professor of Mathematics at Woolwich and teaching the Advanced British Artillery Officers Class. It was considered satisfactory for bullets having a density of .392 lbs/cubic inch or greater. (Lead has a density of .409 lbs/ cubic inch, and copper has a density of from .318-.325 lbs/cubic inch, depending on the alloy)
* The actual formula is much more complicated It is Gyroscopic Stability (GS) = the spin rate (in radians per second, squared) times the polar moment of inertia, squared, divided by the pitching moment coefficient derivative per sine of the angle of attack times the transverse moment of inertia times the air density times the velocity squared. (My keyboard does not have all the correct symbols and that is why I wrote it out). For the bullet to be stable, GS > 1.0. This is actually a short version as the pitching moment coefficient component is a complicated calculation that derives the center of gravity and the center of reverse air pressure. The equation is basically calculating the linear difference between the center of gravity and the center of reverse air pressure on the nose of the bullet. The greater the difference, the greater the spin required to keep the bullet pointed nose forward. It used to take me about three days to calculate one new design by hand. My computer does it in about 20 seconds, now.
Warren Jensen
* The number 150 is a constant used by Greenhill and works well at velocities in the vicinity of 1500 fps or greater. At 2800 fps the constant can be changed to 180 with good results.
Note that it is bullet LENGTH, not weight that is important. Greenhill works well with all lead/lead-alloys commonly used for bullets.
* Except for the extremely exacting requirements of bench rest shooters, and very long range shooters, an "over-stabilized" bullet (rifling twist faster than the minimum required for good stabilization) will shoot as well as a theoretically critically stabilized one.
Barrel twist is usually chosen for the longest bullet that will be fired in that gun. Accordingly, the military has fairly recently changed their .223 barrels to a 7 1/2" twist from a slower one for the newer, longer and heavier bullet that has become standard issue (68 grains, I believe).
* the faster the twist, the quicker it will wear out.
* As temperature or velocity decreases a faster twist is needed to maintain the same level of stability. Colder and thus denser air has a more destabilizing affect than warmer air. A lower muzzle velocity results in a slower rotational speed of the bullet and thus less stability.
*Another catch is that Greenhill assumes that the bullet's specific gravity is 10.9 (a lead cored jacketed bullet). For other bullet construction such as a steel core you need to apply a fudge factor by determining the bullets specific gravity. The formula would be:
Twist = [Square Root (10.9 / specific gravity of the new bullet)] * twist derived for a lead core bullet
*****After all this is said & done, I have found that my .223 Handi-rifle with a 1:12 twist shoots best with 50gr & below slugs.
Also, If a twist rate is too quick, it can put excessive centripetal force on a slug & cause it to vaporize as it leaves the barrel. Very light cased .22 varmint slugs are known for vaporizing when they leave 1:7 twist military barrels at over a quarter million RPM.
[This message has been edited by JIMinNYC (edited 12-27-2002).]

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Gunjunkie

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Member # 9809 posted 12-27-2002 09:43 PM

You did your homework,, all greek to me.. I just shoot..LOL Glad the story put you on the right plane to do this.. Gunjunkie

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Big Blue
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Member # 9134 posted 12-27-2002 10:41 PM

I'm lost to. You couldn't work that all out for a NEF .243 could you?

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Bear 45/70
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Member # 6242 posted 12-28-2002 02:17 AM

JIMinNYC, is bullet lenght the overall lenght of the bullet or the length of the bearing surface of the bullet.
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Bear

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Doc Sharptail

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Member # 5656 posted 12-28-2002 03:08 AM

"A lower muzzle velocity results in a slower rotational speed of the bullet, and then thus less stability."
Definitely not proven. If we look at the .22 lr., it is shown that the slower target ammo is more stable than the high velocity ammo, out of the same twist rate bbl.
Regards,
Doc Sharptail

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JIMinNYC
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Member # 6634 posted 12-28-2002 05:21 AM

Big Blue
Member posted 12-27-2002 07:41 PM
I'm lost to. You couldn't work that all out for a NEF .243 could you?
---------------------------------------

Sure, just let me know what the twist on the .243 is & I will make the calculations.

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JIMinNYC
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Member # 6634 posted 12-28-2002 05:27 AM

JIMinNYC, is bullet lenght the overall lenght of the bullet or the length of the bearing surface of the bullet.
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Bear
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From what I have found so far, I would assume that it means total bullet length, but I am not sure what you mean by bearing surface. I am a little suspicious in the case of a boat tail as to if the length measurement ends where the tail begins. I just don’t know. Also, the original formula was intended to ESTIMATE the correct relationship between twist rate & bullet length. I have found statements that indicate several factors throw this off, such as bullet density, speed, & temperature. I have to assume that shape has an effect also. It just so happens that when everything is said & done that my tests with my .223 handi-rifle & 50 gr Hornady soft points show the basic equation to be pretty much on the money.

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CapeBuff said:
Fantastic, Big Blue! Do they do OK grouping or doesn't the slow rate of twist seem to affect the CP 320s you use ? ? ? I love the idea of a gas check too vs plain based!
CapeBuff,
They won't win any long range competitions, but they are very MOD (minute of deer). If I remember right, I was getting 3" 100 yard groups. They have great penetration.
Don
 

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JIMinNYC,
I remember that posting, from quite some time ago. Since then I've learned how to figure the Greenhill formula for myself, even with a weakness in math. Thanks for the lessons!
Don
 

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Anonymous said:
I have an 1894PG in .44 Mag. Page 1 of the Owners Manual states Minimum OAL as 1.535" and Maximum as 1.610".
I've only used 240gr JHP but am going to track down some heavier ones and see how they go.

Feral_Goz
The Cast Performance loads I'm using are 1.720" and feed fine, as long as you don't baby the lever. A lot depends on the bullets shape.
Don
 
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