W-W vs R-P 45-70 Brass--which is most desirable to standardize on?

Providing a person is working up loads as they should, and providing they are not mixing brass especially as to brands and sometimes as to lots without weighing, extra capacity to provide a, "safety margin" is simply not needed. ------- The loads should be "worked up" with the components used as a consideration. -------------- For example, years back I was developing loads for a son's 30/06 and needed a bit more brass to fill out the test loads planned before taking the hours drive to the range. ------------ Picked out some Remington brass from the brass bucket, making sure the head stamp style was exactly the same as that on the brass in use. Trimmed to proper length, loaded and went to the range. ------------ Those "ODD" cases were clearly much thicker/heavier then the brass (lot number) which had been in use, and not only did those rounds shot from the "odd" brass throw the shot out of the group, but the pressures went wild. ------- One case that I remember clearly ended up with a primer that looked like it was riveted and the case stretched in that one firing from the proper trim to length to well beyond the "need to trim (maximum) length" ------------- Don't rely on the thought that brand X brass is going to give a "safety margin". ------------ It just might not be there when you really need it! ----- Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I use both W-W & R-P, and have no problems with either
I used to try to standardize, but run into supply problems and no one company makes all calibers that I shoot
so I load what I can get

Winchester is the easiest for me to get, so I pretty much have standardized on that brand. It's case capacity is also the highest, which allows me to run at my target velocity at lower pressure.

I have some Starline brass, and it is without a doubt a harder and more uniform case, and I have a batch of it for a load I have worked up with a 540 grain bullet that basically emulates the "Garrett" load.

When the Winchester cases start to wear out, and if Starline is readily available by that time, I will probably transition wholly to Starline. The slight loss in potential velocity is not a concern, and pressure at the velocity I do operate my rifle at would only slightly increase. I use a Beartooth Piledriver Jr. at 1750 fps, using AA2495 as the propellent.

In regards to the R-P brass, I obtained 240 cases that had been stretched to 2.4" by, I believe, Buffalo Arms. I paid $40.00 dollars for all 240, and laboriously cut them back with the intent that they would be a "fire once" proposition. The load using that brass is under 28 Kpsi. I have not used any unaltered R-P brass, so I cannot comment on them in that context.

Crusty - I agree with your points. Vic I'm not sure you've got your physics right here. Lower pressure means lower muzzle velocity for a given bullet weight. It doesn't matter how that lower pressure comes about - whether it's a bigger chamber, seating the bullet further out, thinner brass or in the extreme case a bigger case like a 45-90. Lower pressure means there is less driving force (which is pressure multiplied by area). Have you chronied these loads or are you going by what a book says? Books can't account for the minor differences I listed above (they'll be for one brass headstamp, one seating depth, and whatever test gun's chamber they used). Also the thinner brass means you can't run as a higher pressure before it splits, not that you'd be running those sort of pressures in an 1895!

Crusty Deary Ol Coot said:

however, have a rifle currently on hand in which I have been attempting to load some bullets sized .460 in Winchester brass and that slight difference in case wall thickness at the mouth is not enough to help in this situation. ----- Looking for other solutions. ------------- Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

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exactly the problem I ran into. I even went and bought a .462 sizer die and there was no way in hell of fitting those in... (anyone after a 462 sizer?). The way I see it if you want to run the 460s there are three options: Turn the brass (not advisable), run a stepped bullet (marginal) or get the chamber reamed (hassle). I've thought about reaming, and have even thought about just a regular straight reamer (not a gunsmith one) due to the shape of the cartridge. Surely it would "just" be a case of putting a hand reamer in of the right size, a few turns with the right cutting lube and there you go. I'm maybe not quite confident I'd get is accurate enough by hand to do it though. Although I guess you could make a bush that'd act as a guide through the bolt race way. Either way I'm running 350gr .4595 bullets with no leading at 1300fps right now. When I push these faster I might find I get leading in which case I'd think about reaming more seriously. Then I could use thicker brass too...

All else being equal, the case having the highest capacity can run at a given velocity at a lower pressure compared to a lesser capacity case.

simply need more powder in the thinner case to get to those velocities

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Yes, very true, you will have to run a bit more powder to do it. Ultimately though, higher velocities can be achieved. That is how a .300 WinMag runs 3200 fps with a 165 grain bullet vs the .30-06 at 2850 or 2900 fps--more volume of gas. It's kinda oversimplifying, given burn rates are not being considered, but....


Same is true of a .45-90 vs .45-70. Run a 500 grain bullet at 1500 fps. Which case has the lower pressure(disregard charge needed, this is another subject)? OK, now run both at 40 Kpsi. Which one has the highest velocity? .45-90 in both cases(no pun intended).

Yes Pumkinchunker, you can run your .44 load in your .444 brass, but if you want the velocity to be the same as in the .44 brass, you will have to increase the charge. The gas simply has more room to expand into, and if you want to do as much work, you have to provide more gas. The larger volume will also push for a longer period of time, providing the additional velocity. You will, in addition, be able to utilize slower burning powders even more to your advantage.

The downside is recoil. Weight of the charge is part of the ejecta. Ejecta makes kick...Your 45-90 will kick a little harder at the same velocity as a .45-70, whether you can detect it or not, but the calculations bear it out.

You also have the right idea in placing the bullet closer to the rifling.