In Australia all we can get is ADI and ALLIANT powders I have a new marlin 1895 And wanting roughly 1200;FPS I Cant use trail boss because I can’t get enough in the case without compressing it. I see published date on GMDR and lots of forum posts relating to about13-14 grains of unique But I see no mention of fillers. I’m aware to much Case space ( as is the case with 13 gr of unique) Is dangerous and fillers can be dangerous too. I can’t be up ending the rifle Prior to every shot. at the range to sit the powder on my primer my rifle range won’t allow it. Please help if you have experience in this area. I not proceed at the moment till I feel more confident .... thank you
Unique in my 4570 500 grain cast lead
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Hey Walnut,
No filler required with: Unique, Universal, HS 6 in the 45/70. None of these have been "position sensitive" in my experience.
I have used these powders in hundreds of rounds of 45/70 with bullets of 300gr to 425gr.
The QUIGLEY forbids the use of fillers....due to the many damaged rifles in years past.
Hope this helps.
Later, Mark
No filler required with: Unique, Universal, HS 6 in the 45/70. None of these have been "position sensitive" in my experience.
I have used these powders in hundreds of rounds of 45/70 with bullets of 300gr to 425gr.
The QUIGLEY forbids the use of fillers....due to the many damaged rifles in years past.
Hope this helps.
Later, Mark
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Walnut,
An old manual, 1937 by PB Sharpe, lists Unique and the 500 gr cast bullet starting load 10.0gr 1,020 fps and pressure 11,200. Max load 17.2gr 1,330 fps and pressure 24,000. Also, 70 gr of Fg at 1,320 fps and 25,000 pressure.
I hope this helps. Not knowing if there have been changes to Unique over the years, I would suggest starting at the suggested starting load and working from there.
No fillers needed. Unique is very easy to light and is not position sensitive from my experiences.
Thanks poop. great that u include d the pressure figures. And I loved that bit about it beig easy to ignite and unlikely to b position sensitive, And I loved the fact that it came from a manual too This has been bothering me for three weeks.
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Walnut,
Here is a link to a post I started a few years ago with many reference links. The old manual is included.
PDP
load-data-and-references.628262
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Here is another item to peruse. GMDR was a member here (may/may not still be?)
Lever Gun Performance Studies
Reloading Data for cast bullets, result of lever gun accuracy studies on cartridges: 357 Magnum, 41 Rem Mag, 44 S&W, 44 Russian, 44 Magnum, 444 Marlin, 45-70 Goverment, Pistol Powders, Large Capacity Rifle Cases
www.gmdr.com
A lot of his work "duplicates/validates" the old SHARPE'S MANUAL listings...(circa WWI?)
I have some old Belding & Mull Manuals..... (they are still in business, up to Phillipsburg, Pa)
For low velocity/low recoil...powders such as Unique & Universal are your friends.
For a recoil test, loaded a bunch of 405gr pills with 13.7gr UNIVERSAL & some with 28gr 4198. About 1120-1150fps.
The 4198 loads had about 50% more recoil. Hmmm? Why punish one's self? LOL
Hope this helps.
Later, Mark
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Fillers are generally a poor idea with smokeless powders. Lyman used to list lots of cast bullet data with fillers - but stopped recommending them 19 years ago. There was a reason they stopped. Here is what a professional ballistician has to say:
www.shootingtimes.com
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Fillers for Reduced Rifle Loads
Two classes of fillers for reduced rifle reloads are 'puffballs' and granular. Puffballs are the most troublesome, but granular is no cure-all.
www.shootingtimes.com
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The linked article about filler is fascinating.
it is also the postulation of someone with no experience with it, and he gets some things very wrong.
And yes, I did not misstate that. I would be happy to explain. I have vastly more experience with fillers than Dave Andrews does. There are do’s and don’ts, but ultimately it is a personal choice. Proper filler selection and use addresses some of the concerns he speculates about, but it is clear he never looked into the matter.
The idea that powders are not position sensitive is either somewhat true or mostly false. Most powders are not position sensitive in a 9mm....not very, anyway. Powders are often quite position sensitive in the 38 Special, and may be very position sensitive with a lot of airspace in a rifle sized case.
I consider 16 grains Unique the max allowable with a 405 grain lead bullet in the 45-70. View Phillip B. Sharpe’s pressure data with deep suspicion. The deeply seated 500 grain bullet suited to run through a Marlin action runs pressures up over the 405 quite a bit. 1250 fps with 16 Unique is obtained with a 405 in. 22 inch barrel.
In my opinion 1200 with a 500 is getting rather optimistic with Unique and would prefer a slower velocity be obtained or use another powder.
i don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes here....but there is a reason for all the commentary above.
it is also the postulation of someone with no experience with it, and he gets some things very wrong.
And yes, I did not misstate that. I would be happy to explain. I have vastly more experience with fillers than Dave Andrews does. There are do’s and don’ts, but ultimately it is a personal choice. Proper filler selection and use addresses some of the concerns he speculates about, but it is clear he never looked into the matter.
The idea that powders are not position sensitive is either somewhat true or mostly false. Most powders are not position sensitive in a 9mm....not very, anyway. Powders are often quite position sensitive in the 38 Special, and may be very position sensitive with a lot of airspace in a rifle sized case.
I consider 16 grains Unique the max allowable with a 405 grain lead bullet in the 45-70. View Phillip B. Sharpe’s pressure data with deep suspicion. The deeply seated 500 grain bullet suited to run through a Marlin action runs pressures up over the 405 quite a bit. 1250 fps with 16 Unique is obtained with a 405 in. 22 inch barrel.
In my opinion 1200 with a 500 is getting rather optimistic with Unique and would prefer a slower velocity be obtained or use another powder.
i don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes here....but there is a reason for all the commentary above.
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And the “too much case space” when referring to small amounts of powder in large cases is a discussion we need to be having as well. Apparently the “detonation” boogeyman is raising his head.
Again. Speculation arises as to this topic and all sorts of improbable ideas are thrown about. Confusion also exists when attributing the effect to conditions that do not exist, or mistaking the effects of the use of one type of powder and attributing it to another.
Again. Speculation arises as to this topic and all sorts of improbable ideas are thrown about. Confusion also exists when attributing the effect to conditions that do not exist, or mistaking the effects of the use of one type of powder and attributing it to another.
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35Remintion,
I would enjoy any contribution you might offer about "too much case space" and more accurate slow loads in a 45-70CB.
edit
for that matter in 38 special also
Use TB now with success but experimenting with Minimum loads of H4198 and Polyfil wads under a 410g SOG. just in the Chrono phase so far.
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Reader’s Digest Version tonite.
Will go into more detail tomorrow.
Fast powders don’t detonate or explode when case space exists. But do figure if there is room to accidentally add too much fast powder, like a double charge or more, that is going to happen unless one is vigilant. One accident is mistaken for the other. I use fast powders with vastly more airspace than discussed here....like Bullseye or WST in a 308 to shoot a 89 grain 32 wadcutter 950-1050. If case space was gonna cause high pressure surely my chronograph would have caught it.
Nothing other than normal velocities and low pressure. I have too many other examples of small charges in large cases to list. Nearly all have been chronographed. Nothing out of the ordinary. Ever.
If it is believed a powder is not position sensitive, hang with me awhile. ALL of them are. The conditions under which the powder is sensitive clearly have not been tested or statements like “XXX Powder is not position sensitive” would not be bandied about as often as they are.
And yeah, Titegroup and Unique can be position sensitive. None of them get a pass.
38 Special is worse than 9mm in this regard due to the two contributing factors, which are pressure, or a relative lack of it, and unused case volume. With standard pressure loads, 17000 odd psi, in 38 Special Unique shows 100 fps velocity variation with powder shifted front to back. Position sensitive? Yep. If you want low velocity variation in 38 use wadcutters and take up some unused case space. Titegroup does decently as long as standard bulet weights are used. Light bullets and low pressure and it doesn’t do so well.
Filler is properly used when the firing event does not alter the physical characteristics of the filler...does not change it from a solid into a fluid, for instance. Don’t try to compress an incompressible material into a smaller space under a pressure event like firing a cartridge. Avoid airspace when using filler or the purpose is defeated. Fillers don’t intermix with powder, said by a guy who has thrown and bashed cartridges about to see if they do.
Not the way I do it.
If by polyfil you mean Dacron, or 100 percent polyester fiberfill, your usage with 4198 meets all the criteria of effectiveness so long as all space between powder and bullet is well occupied with Dacron. Why would I say such a thing? Because minimum loads of 4198 without filler have miserable ballistic consistency when powder wanders around.
Either do not let powder wander around or use filler. Your choice.
Do not use fast powders with Dacron fiber or fillers like Grex or shotshell buffer. Rule of thumb is to use no powder faster than 2400 with filler. Fast powder fuses Dacron and plastic fillers. Fillered loads are, of necessity, well down in the pressure range.
Fast powders like Bullseye, Red Dot or Unique are great fun in the 45-70 and give mild recoil and report but do not trust old data for these powders published 85 year ago. The amounts used and the pressures given are in error. They are applicable, but not for heavy bullets or high velocities.
Will go into more detail tomorrow.
Fast powders don’t detonate or explode when case space exists. But do figure if there is room to accidentally add too much fast powder, like a double charge or more, that is going to happen unless one is vigilant. One accident is mistaken for the other. I use fast powders with vastly more airspace than discussed here....like Bullseye or WST in a 308 to shoot a 89 grain 32 wadcutter 950-1050. If case space was gonna cause high pressure surely my chronograph would have caught it.
Nothing other than normal velocities and low pressure. I have too many other examples of small charges in large cases to list. Nearly all have been chronographed. Nothing out of the ordinary. Ever.
If it is believed a powder is not position sensitive, hang with me awhile. ALL of them are. The conditions under which the powder is sensitive clearly have not been tested or statements like “XXX Powder is not position sensitive” would not be bandied about as often as they are.
And yeah, Titegroup and Unique can be position sensitive. None of them get a pass.
38 Special is worse than 9mm in this regard due to the two contributing factors, which are pressure, or a relative lack of it, and unused case volume. With standard pressure loads, 17000 odd psi, in 38 Special Unique shows 100 fps velocity variation with powder shifted front to back. Position sensitive? Yep. If you want low velocity variation in 38 use wadcutters and take up some unused case space. Titegroup does decently as long as standard bulet weights are used. Light bullets and low pressure and it doesn’t do so well.
Filler is properly used when the firing event does not alter the physical characteristics of the filler...does not change it from a solid into a fluid, for instance. Don’t try to compress an incompressible material into a smaller space under a pressure event like firing a cartridge. Avoid airspace when using filler or the purpose is defeated. Fillers don’t intermix with powder, said by a guy who has thrown and bashed cartridges about to see if they do.
Not the way I do it.
If by polyfil you mean Dacron, or 100 percent polyester fiberfill, your usage with 4198 meets all the criteria of effectiveness so long as all space between powder and bullet is well occupied with Dacron. Why would I say such a thing? Because minimum loads of 4198 without filler have miserable ballistic consistency when powder wanders around.
Either do not let powder wander around or use filler. Your choice.
Do not use fast powders with Dacron fiber or fillers like Grex or shotshell buffer. Rule of thumb is to use no powder faster than 2400 with filler. Fast powder fuses Dacron and plastic fillers. Fillered loads are, of necessity, well down in the pressure range.
Fast powders like Bullseye, Red Dot or Unique are great fun in the 45-70 and give mild recoil and report but do not trust old data for these powders published 85 year ago. The amounts used and the pressures given are in error. They are applicable, but not for heavy bullets or high velocities.
Thank you all for the input. And thank u for the links. I take note weather u agree with each other or not. At the end of the day it’s up to me to assess all the info and proceed from there. Just knocked of work and rather tired. I will re read thoroughly later.
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The problem with old data is not only that pressure testing methods were inferior. It also fails to take into account that the 500 grain bullet is seated much deeper into the case to work through a Marlin. Reduced case space with fast powder notably increases pressure.
I remember reading a magazine article MANY years ago by Mike Venturino where he writes about loading an OLD cartridge for a friend and he uses corn meal as a filler all the way to the base of the bullet. Friend said it smells like corn bread every time he fires the rifle. HTH
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One of the things I do know is the data printed by Sharpe 80 odd years ago is “sharply“ contradicted by the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd Edition.
For 10 grains of Unique to generate around 10K psi in a Marlin rifle a 322 grain bullet would have to be used, not a 500 grain. The Lyman load data shows this.
Further, the heaviest bullet used is around 460 grains and is found in the “Ruger Number 1 and Number 3 only” data.
In it, the lighter 460 grain bullet, which allows more case space than a 500 grain bullet, is seated to a longer overall length by far than a Marlin would allow, which leaves even more space in the case than a 500 grain bullet would. Both these factors lower pressure compared to seating a heavier bullet deeper. Despite all this the max charge is just about a full three grains lower than what Sharpe suggests, yet the recorded pressure is substantially higher.
So more recent data strongly suggests that the Sharpe data is way out of bounds for a Marlin 45-70 and a 500 grain bullet. From this we know his claimed max charge would generate way more pressure than the claimed 24,000 psi. Which is why I suggested using something other than Unique to get your desired velocity. Seating a heavy bullet deeply jacks pressure up substantially. We are now in uncharted water to a significant degree, but we do know the Sharpe data for Unique is in very substantial error if used with a 500 in your rifle.
For 10 grains of Unique to generate around 10K psi in a Marlin rifle a 322 grain bullet would have to be used, not a 500 grain. The Lyman load data shows this.
Further, the heaviest bullet used is around 460 grains and is found in the “Ruger Number 1 and Number 3 only” data.
In it, the lighter 460 grain bullet, which allows more case space than a 500 grain bullet, is seated to a longer overall length by far than a Marlin would allow, which leaves even more space in the case than a 500 grain bullet would. Both these factors lower pressure compared to seating a heavier bullet deeper. Despite all this the max charge is just about a full three grains lower than what Sharpe suggests, yet the recorded pressure is substantially higher.
So more recent data strongly suggests that the Sharpe data is way out of bounds for a Marlin 45-70 and a 500 grain bullet. From this we know his claimed max charge would generate way more pressure than the claimed 24,000 psi. Which is why I suggested using something other than Unique to get your desired velocity. Seating a heavy bullet deeply jacks pressure up substantially. We are now in uncharted water to a significant degree, but we do know the Sharpe data for Unique is in very substantial error if used with a 500 in your rifle.
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Old data being substantially In error is pretty common. P O Ackley’s data suffers from the same thing. Many other examples of this exist.
Never use data without cross checking it with another source, and most especially if it is old or not able to be referenced in some way. Multiple sources give context, which is essential.
Never use data without cross checking it with another source, and most especially if it is old or not able to be referenced in some way. Multiple sources give context, which is essential.
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