Marlin Firearms Forum banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Recently picked up a texas brush popper in .357 for me and the wife to shoot. Been searching the web for all the info I can come up with for reloading
and such, but have more questions than when I started.

Here's the quandary, I see lots of posts that say you shouldn't shoot full power 357 loads in it for a long time as it batters the links, or lever, (whichever)
and some say they have shot thousands of full power loads with no problem. I can see where +P loads would be a no no, but I thought there were made
for .357 loads.

Some just shoot .38 special loads in them, but they require certain work for them to function correctly.

Anyone been there, done that, that has the truth to help an old guy out?
Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,731 Posts
1. What does it say on the barrel?
2. Does it say anything about ammo in the instruction manual?

I don't see any reason why a modern rifle, a reproduction of an old rifle, would not shoot standard pressure factory loads in the caliber its chambered for.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,682 Posts
The Chuck Hawks review didn't mention anything about only using 38 special as he shot 357 and 38 special+P loads in his testing. I read the owners manual and it didn't mention not using 357's. Unless something came with the rifle expressly stating that you shouldn't start with 357 rounds I would buy (or reload) em and fire em.

Very nice looking rifle from their website.

1895gunner
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
325 Posts
I'm pretty sure the Uberti website says their guns can take full power (not +p) modern loads compared to what they are based on.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,018 Posts
Hey there F45 -- Welcome to Marlin Owners. Those Uberti's are excellent rifles. I don't have much use for short barrels, but my 24" is smooth and accurate - right out of the box. It is "modern everything" so shoot .357 Mags if you want to. The lifters on these '73 style rifles are also the magazine cartridge stop. Overall cartridge length is critical to good performance. A 38 Special cartridge will jam your rifle as it will allow the following cartridge in the magazine to partially enter the lifter.

If you reload, Load to 38 special specs and use .357 brass. Plenty fun to shoot, especially for the missus.

Here is what my links looked like after about 50,000 plus rounds through the rifle.

View attachment 105188

The machine marks are barely polished off of them.

Here's the rifle.

View attachment 105189

Best regards. Wind
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks to all for the info. That is what I suspected, but the little tidbits that said otherwise had me wondering. After all, If you read it on the
internet, it has to be true. lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,368 Posts
It has to do with the lockup not being as strong as the 1892 models.
eventually it will loosen up.
Uberti makes their guns so they can shoot a lot of low power rounds
but not a lot of full power loads.
Going past SAAMI specs will wear them out a lot quicker.
I prefer the 1892 lockup over the 1873.
I hope Uberti makes an 1892 at some point.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,018 Posts
Hey there C1 -- You've got me a little confused. Is there such a thing as a .357 Mag Short? Or Long? Why would a rifle manufacturing company market a rifle in this day and age, chambered for a SAAMI spec .357 Magnum cartridge, somehow be for low power loads? Barrels for smokeless specs have been around for 120 years. Whilst this test was for the 1876 Winchester, the action is essentially the same as the '73. The 75 in 45-75 is 75 grains of black powder. You might find this interesting...

"The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. These tests astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak". The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle.

He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect.

They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted.

They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well."

From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well."

Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff."

The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment.

Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

I gotta say I'm hard pressed to see where this action is "weak" too.

Best regards. Wind
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,368 Posts
I have been reading a lot on the 1873 designs and there is a lot being written on how the
Toggle link action was designed more for shooting a lot of light powered cowboy
action loads versus full power but still SAMMI spec cartridges.
I've also spoken to a couple of gunsmiths including Stevezgunz and he works on
these as well and has said the same thin that the action doesn't hold up over time.

I don't own one, but was thinking I' like to but so far it seems to be a tossup
because the issue has been mostly about the 44 Mag Uberti's holding up.
Also hotter loaded 45 Colt's.

I'd have to guess that a 357 short would be a 38 special.

I'm still digging out the info on these but the CAS forums have a lot
written about it.

I know the lockup is stronger on the 1892, newer design, but I was
passing along what I had been reading.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,123 Posts
Here is what my links looked like after about 50,000 plus rounds through the rifle.

View attachment 105188

The machine marks are barely polished off of them.
I'd call 50,000 rounds a fair test of the durability. Thanks Wind !

B
 
  • Like
Reactions: dhansen

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,018 Posts
Hey there Lou -- I'd bet two nickels that it is not...

"Using superior quality forged steel, state-of-the-art technology and high precision machine tools, combined with the centuries-old skills of polishers, engravers and stockers, A.Uberti is able to create historical firearms with the same loving care with which the originals were crafted all those centuries ago. In the Beretta Group since the year 2000, the Company moved into a brand new ultra modern building in the year 2002 with all the up-to-date facilities and excellent environmental conditions for its workers. High tech machinery was also introduced on a large scale."

My rifle runs just as smoothly, and is just as accurate as the day it came out of the box. Best regards. Wind
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,700 Posts
Good to know Wind. I have lusted over the Uberti Winchesters for a long time, but have also heard all the internet jabber over how weak the toggle action is.

I would love to have a 1876 in one of those old forgotten calibers like 45-60, 45-75 or 50-95!:biggrin:

Im not sure but I think the 76 has the same toggle action as the 73 just set up for the longer cartridges.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
107 Posts
With great humblety to Wind & others who's experience with shooting these old design guns far exceeds mine & I don't doubt the voracity of the article Wind supplied....but... my shop experience won't allow me to shoot anything but so-called reduced power cowboy loads in my own 73's or any toggle action for that matter.

I have had 2 Uberti 1860 Henry's in my shop that developed excessive head space shooting full power 44-40 hunting loads. Both guns owned by a husband/wife couple. They shot thousands of cowboy rounds without a problem but as soon as they started "hunting" the guns, both developed headspace's of .045" in one and .048 in the other. On both guns they started life with very tight fitting side plates, now both sets of plates have a very noticeable gap in the slide groove. The frames have both obviously "stretched". Both have been relegated to "boat anchor" status.

As well I have had at least 4 steel frame 73's in the shop with broken/bent back pins, one was a .45, the other three were .357 Mag.. It appears that, although the machining of each gun should be absolutely identical, that isn't actually the case and some guns come out with a little more tolerance between the toggle & the back toggle buttress that takes the recoil. A steel frame gun with a tight tolerance at the toggle end may very well handle a Mag load and another with more tolerance probably won't for very long.

Just my observations and others may vary but my 73's will only get fed wussy loads
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,018 Posts
Dang fingers -- You need to come out of the woodwork more than just once every year or so! I'm not at all familiar with how Uberti puts the 1860's rifles together. Is that a plated frame or some brass alloy? It is interesting, however, your experiences with the steel framed 73's. Appreciate the input. Best regards. Wind
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
519 Posts
I owned an Uberti '73 for about eight years. It probably saw around 5000 rounds in that time and nigh on all were .357 reloads. As far as I could tell, the rifle was still nice and tight when I passed it on to a guy who I believe still has the rifle.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,346 Posts
Since the '73 was designed before any of us were even dreamed of, I'm finding it difficult to swallow "there is a lot being written on how the Toggle link action was designed more for shooting a lot of light powered cowboyaction loads versus full power but still SAMMI spec cartridges."

Check out the factory loads of the 1870's and they are not cowboy action loads, they are cowboy defense loads for home and hearth, feed the family and ward off hostile men and beasts.

Uberti states on his website that the '73 works well with the 357's but will not hold up to heavy 44-40 or 44mag loads. Just reading and passing it on.

My personal '73 38WCF was my great grandfather's and only gets loads heavy enough for about 300 yards reliably. Some of you have fired this fine specimen. I have achieved 500 yards on occasion, but haven't found the magic load to create the reliability factor. Maybe that's me....I'm with WIND on this one and certainly appreciate the candor in the blurb on the strength. Keeps me humble.

Jeff
 
  • Like
Reactions: stevewhr

·
Registered
Joined
·
107 Posts
Wind , the 1860's are a brass frame and I just used them as an example that even tho they are European proofed, they still will not hold up to so called "modern full loads". Probably a bad example in this conversation now that I think on it.

An observation I missed mentioning in the first post was that in every damaged 73, the rear pin hole was deformed to an oblong/peened state. If damage is extensive it can be fixed with a drill-out & bushing job but let me tell you the exacting measurements to put the hole back in the right place is daunting.

to go a little further into a technical discussion concerning the toggle guns and todays magnum cartridges, I would like to add that the cartridges for these early guns only produced pressures in the low to mid 20's, even the 45-75 mentioned. The .357 Mag has many reloading manual references to rounds up in the 40,000 lb range. A sygnificant amount of difference. Who knows how much pressure the Winchester 45-75 produced before destruction and did the damage start to weaken the metal with the first overload (pressure damage is cumulative on metal) or did all the damage occur with the final round... not enough testing equipment around back then to answer some of the questions that I would ask.

I guess...as in all things shooting concerned..to each his own.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top