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Most departments around Ohio and abroad from what I know are going to .45s. Is this just something im realizing or is it really a nationwide trend? Id like to know why, I mean whats wrong with the .40S&W that most recently used around here? Im sure the cops themselves would know. Tnks- Rudy
 

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It's like big bore Marlins - bigger holes are better holes! :D

Seriously - the .40 is a fine cartridge, but the .45 is becoming widely recognized as a very good law enforcement cartridge.

My department went from .357 revolvers to .45 Colt semi-autos 20 years ago, and they've given superb service. About 5 years ago we also started offering Glocks in .40 and .45 as duty weapons. The good old .45/1911 is still carried by about 20% of the force. I'm impressed with the 20 year service life we've seen from the Colts, all I've replaced in most of them is recoil springs from time to time. A few slide stops... That's about it...

Truth be told, with modern LE or self-defense ammo (Ranger SXT etc) the 9mm, .40 and .45 are all decent sidearms. I strongly prefer the .45, but that's mostly because I've been carrying one for 26 years now. It does have some interesting characteristics in it's favor:

1) Operates at very low pressure - don't often hear of burst cases with .45's, but it happens with other, higher pressure cartridges with some frequency. We blew quite a few .40 cases in our Glocks early on, and switched ammo accordingly.

2) I've had shooters tell me that they feel the .40 has a sharp recoil, while the .45 is felt as more of a push.

3) Terminal ballistics are a subject of much debate, but even if a .45 fails to expand, it still makes a big hole. Big holes in bad guys are a good thing.

As head of my department's firearms program, I am comfortable sending officers afield with either the .40 or the .45, as long as they shoot it well.

Regards, Guy
 

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Guy, what velocity and bullet size of the 45's are you using? I just read Masaad Ayoob's in the Gravest extreme obviously written before the advent of GLock's and the 40cal. He preferred the 45, cause it would "stop" a man. The 38 would more likely kill him, but have less a chance to stop him. The 357 would do a little more than the 38, but not proportionately more like the blast and kick would suggest.

I'm getting ready to start carrying, and am curious still about the 45's. I've got one, but it wouldn't be particularly handy to carry. :)

My law enforcement buddy has me using the Remington 38 FBI load. It sure works on small vermin! That bullet expands easily even in my snubby.
 

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Dr. A - We've been carrying the 230 grain Federal Hydra Shock for the past 10 or 11 years. Over my CED chronograph it hits an easy 950 fps from a 5" barrel 1911 Gov't model. A little less from a Glock 21, and only about 825 fps from my 3.5" Colt Officer's model.

The Hydra Shock is a somewhat dated bullet design. It was top notch 10 - 15 years ago and consistently placed in the top spot or near it, in many different tests of self-defense/LE type handgun ammo.

These days, there are some other even more formidable bullets available. The science of getting a bullet to expand at low .45 velocity, but not come completely apart on impact with something tough, has come a long way.

Regards, Guy
 

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I realize that you all don't fit in this class, but they are issuing mp'5s to the morons here,, hell most just barely qualify with m16's they have , and some are not qualified to have weapons as I see it.. yep Barney Fife types.. shouldn't even have tazers .. ( I sure am not against LEO's.. but its scary here sometimes.. to what they have and there mental attitude's..)
 
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I hear you Gunjunkie. I'm in charge of the firearms training for my 40 regular and roughly 30 reserve officers. It's a bell curve. Some of the guys are superb gun handlers, they could hold their own at a 3-gun match anytime. The bulk of the officers are competent, but not brilliant, gun handlers. Then there's the other end of the curve... Those who have one heck of a time doing well with any firearm. Unfortunately, they consume the largest part of my time, and sometimes my resources. Some of the poor gun handlers are newbies, others are guys and gals who, even though they try, just don't get it very well, still others are those who don't care. It amazes me that people want to be a police officer, but they don't care about firearms skills, physical fitness, hand-to-hand skills (in PC terms "defensive tactics") or how to drive well at speed. They're out there though - collecting a paycheck and unlikely to provide good response to an emergency. Some of these non-shooters are fine people, and good officers in other areas, but they barely manage to qualify, time after time. It's a little frustrating. Regards, Guy
 

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I hear ya.. their is lots more , as you have stated, to the job than a badge and gun.... I am sure glad there are some dedicated people in control still.. but unless they can finish growing these newbys up, it's not going to be pretty.. I couldn't train or work with some of them,, not enough prozac in the world.. :lol:
 

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Like I've always said ... the badge and gun will get you into more trouble that it will get you out of. Some cops get "badge on the brain" In my time I tried to talk to people like they were people, like they say Act nice, think mean.
 

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Hey,M700 We've had the bafoons w/ weapons problem at my office for years. You all but literally need to pull the trigger for them. You need to shoot them through several times to get their ticket punched, and one of these "highly skilled and trained professionals" even loaded his magizines w/ rounds facing to the rear, and this was a guy who has been on the job 20+ years.
 

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The one I heard the most about when I was working was the Speer 200gr JHP AKA Flying Ash Can or Dixie Cup it put a lot of perps out of commission it was the favorite round of the LASO for many years and many of my fellow LE friends carried it. Many of my friends & I bought several hundred of these bullets before they were discontinued & still have them to load in 45 acp's and 45 long colts.Another good load is the 165gr Sierra JHP designed by the owner of CorBon it's a +P 45acp load originally designed for women LE shooters.
 

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We're trading our Berretta 92s (.40) and G17s (+P+) for HK 2000's in .40.

A lot of range time is scheduled to practice with the shorter sight radius.

So far, haven't heard to many complaints.

-P
 

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Im' from RI. My department switched from 9mm to .45 a couple of years ago. We were carrying Smith 5906's. Now we carry H & K USP's. I like them. The USP's have the tritium night sights, which is good. However, in cold temperatures the plastic ends on the magazines shatter when you drop them during a magazine change. Anyone else out there experience that?
 

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.357 sig

We went to the .357 sig after hearing good things about them about 5 years ago. We were involved in testing on a major manufacturer of eyewittness (in car video) systems. We shot their (Bullet proof) box and competitors box. results as follows:

9mm went through first layer, dinged second layer, and stopped. Silvertip 147 grain out of Glock 19

45 acp: Went through first layer, and second layer, then dinged third layer on other side of box Hydroshock 230's out of my 1911 (left the bigest dent however...(Im still a .45 acp fan though)

40 S&W: I believe they were 180gr hydroshocks out of Glock 23. The bullet hit the outside of the box and dropped to the ground not even penetrating. didn't believe it, so tried again with same results.

.357 sig: went through all four layers of "Bullet proof box" and then half way through competators box. We hadn't planned on that however because we hadn't started testing the competitors box. 124 grain Speer Gold Dot out of Sig P226

.357 Mag: Hydroshocks I believe 124 gr out of 4" smith 19, went though three layers and dinged fourth layer pretty good.

.44 mag : 240gr jackated solid 's blew through both boxes.

And if you are wondering, the competators box didn't fair near so well. Whether this was a fair test of calibers I don't know, But I was impressed with the .357 Sig and the Gold Dot I chose for our department.


I won't say the company names however online as I don't want to slander anyone. And both companies have gone to selling digital systems anyways............
badasp
 

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The sheriff department my cousin works for switched from the Glock 17 in 9mm to the Glock 21 in .45acp. I'll have to get ahold of him and see if I can find out the reason. I know they had been using the 9mm for a long time, since the late 80's maybe it was just time to get new pistols and they decided to go to a bigger caliber.
 

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I think the F.B.I (back in the day) adopted the 230gr Hydrashock because other .45 bullets had a tendency to bounce off the angle of a windshield whereas the Hydrashock would not.

Also the 158gr +P lead hp .38spl was adopted then as well by them.
 

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peetie said:
I think the F.B.I (back in the day) adopted the 230gr Hydrashock because other .45 bullets had a tendency to bounce off the angle of a windshield whereas the Hydrashock would not.

Also the 158gr +P lead hp .38spl was adopted then as well by them.
You know, I once heard that nonsense about bullets bouncing off. So a buddy and I decided to test it out. At acute angles, we had .38 spl, .357 mag, 9mm, .45 acp, and .45 Colt sort a glance off. But those were angles of 80° or more. We used a variety of jhp, lrn, fmc and fp rounds. Get much below that 80° point, and they all penetrated. Now, they all deflected to some point after passing through the glass, with the heavier rounds deflecting less that the lighter ones. Now this wasn't some scientific test. Just a couple of guys with too much time on their hands and a good bit of curiosity.
 

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When I started off with a Sheriff's Dept back in the early 80s we used .357 magnums in wheelguns, particulary Colt Troopers, S&W model 13-19. I remember having to qualifty with the "magnum rounds." In the mid 90s we transitioned to semi-automatics. Since we had to purchase our own firearms at that time, it was a mixure of S&W 4506s, Beretta 92s, Ruger P series, with some Colt model 70s- model 80s. I started off with a Beretta 92 then transitioned to 96. We as well as other deptartments had problems with the 40 feeding and jamming due to the oglive of the bullets. I can remember working with factory reps from Speer to solve this problem, which was corrected. With my 96, I never had a problem. I also noticed the recoil was more pronounced with the .40s. About 4 years ago, the dept I am with purchased H&K USP in .45 with the LEM setup. We went with the Golddots 230g. The triggers with the LEM are not as consistent compared to Glocks. So, my off duty is a G-36 which I shoot consistenty, even more so than the H&Ks. We went with the .45 due to shooting incendents with the .40 were not that stellar as well as our qualifications are more scenerio based versus just punching holes in paper. Most departments are going with the .45 due to they make bigger holes in the bad guys and with the improvements in ammo design, terminal ballistics are vastly superior.
 

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In 71 our dept had 38 spl revolvers, then went with 357 Smiths. Sorry too much recoil pushing a 38. Then when we got 45 long Colt revolvers, I feel in love. Then they screwed up and went with the 92Fs. Never really cared for it. 45 Long Colt was only weapons they let us purchase for ourselves. Still own it, will probably be in my lap when they roll me into the nursing home, along with my Sten Mark II.
 

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I work with a large variety of Midwest departments and haven't noticed any big departmental switch to the 45acp. Only two that I work with require the 45. When departments give officers are given the choice, most shooters go for the 40 or 45 while most non-shooters or smaller statured folks go for the 9mm. At least in my locale.
 
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