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Well I have the Lee dies and the M die is essential to loading the big .460 - .461 boolits in the case. The expander in the lee set just doesnt do it for me where the "M" die does.

Crusty, it does nothing for groups, just helps me with opening the mouth of the case so that the boolits dont crush the top of the case.

35 Remington, I will have a discussion any time you want about my use of the Lyman M die!
Here is a .459 boolit I tried to load in a Starline case without using the M die.
Ammunition Bullet Brass Gun accessory Metal



Doc
 
Thanks guys!

I use the Hornady 3 die set for my 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast in the 45/70. The bullet is sized .460 and the brass is starline. Every thing is working fine with the Hornady dies.

I do have "M" dies for .30 caliber cast bullet use, but those 2 die sets do not flair the case mouth like the 3 die sets do.

Thanks. I'm old but hope not too old to still learn a bit.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 
Let's have that discussion.

It is commonly and erroneously repeated that the M die does something "special" for cast bullets in terms of preparing the case neck inside diameter. It does not, in that it does not "specially" size the case neck compared to the Hornady expander CDOC mentioned. Both are intended for JACKETED bullets, and size the case so a .458" diameter jacketed bullet is gripped correctly. When speaking of .461" bullets, the neck tension is "tighter" than needed, and the M die does nothing.......repeat, nothing the Hornady expander does not do. If the bullet is soft and oversize, both may swage the bullet to some degree since they are intended for jacketed bullets. Harder bullets may avoid the effect, as will gaschecked bullets. Both are intended for jacketed bullets, but may be adapted to cast bullets due to another feature.

What both the Hornady and M die do is flare the case neck to accept the cast bullet heel without shaving, but the M die doesn't do it any better than the Hornady die does, as it flares the case neck as well.

Some also erroneously proselytize for the M die in that the step allows "straighter" bullet seating, but this is also a misconception. The same straight alignment to start can be had by simply giving the nose of the bullet a gentle tap against the seating stem before giving it the full seating stroke (withdraw the case after gently tapping it and before fully seating the bullet and you will see the bullet is aligned with the case using this simple expedient). Truly straight bullet seating is not had due to the M die's influence when the heel of the bullet is merely 1/16th inch in the case neck, because the seating die is responsible for guiding the bullet the rest of the way. So the seating die's alignment with the shellholder and cartridge/bullet and the fit of the seating stem to the bullet's nose is responsible for straight bullet seating more than the illusory claims for the "step" in the M die.

I do not have a Lee expander for 45-70, but I am aware they are on a continuous taper that gets larger as it goes up. So, make sure the flare is adequate before seating the bullet, Doc, and likely your problems will go away. Check to see the heel of the bullet can be fully admitted into the case, trying it by hand, before putting it in the seating die.

Doc, measure the diameter of the Lee die's plug at the bottom and top and report on this thread what they are.

All....and I mean all....three die sets for straight cases from all manufacturers have some means to flare the case neck, and this isn't exclusive to the M die. Witness RCBS, Redding, Lee, and other brands of pistol and straight case rifle dies. All will accept cast bullets. I seem to be loading 45 ACP's and 32 Smith and Wesson Longs and 38's in these other brands with cast bullets just fine, and there isn't an M die in sight, nor is there a need for one.

In any event, CDOC specifically asked about the advantages of the M die over his Hornady expander. There aren't any. Zilch.

Incidentally, when speaking of bottleneck cases, far better results may be had in terms of fitting oversized cast bullet diameters if the Lee Collet Neck Die is used. This allows adjustable neck inside diameter to fit oversized cast bullets to allow gripping them without any possible swaging down of diameter in a neck sized for jacketed bullets.
 
Ok, Lets... I tried for a couple months to get my lee expanding die to work (should be easy right?) Put the shell into the die, screw it down until you feel it hit the top of the case, lower the case and screw it down a little at a time while raising the case to flair.... Well I kept cranking on the darn thing and it wasnt doing anything to flair the case to fit the base of even the .459's just as I got to the bottom of the threads it went from no flair to \ / and now wouldnt fit into my seating die... I gave up, purchased the M die and within seconds I was loading ammo.. The Lee die went sailing into the waste basket at that time.

I never once said that the M die does anything special compaired to the Hornady since I dont own one, If I would have gotten that set then maybe, just maybe I wouldnt have gotten the Lyman die.

Doc
 
Man! I think we're getting a new reloader prospect every day now. Was it something we said?:hmmmm:
Anyway, it's a great new way to enjoy your firearms. But watch it, it can become an obsession real quick.
 
Doc, as you have likely read in my posts, I am a very selective and picky buyer of Lee products.

I looked at the Lee neck expander on the net awhile back, and I can see why you never had any positive results.

The last thing I'd want is some long tapered neck expansion. I couldn't see how that die could possibly prove usable.

Maybe it's sale is a good move on their part to sell more collet type crimpers.?.?.?.. :hmmmm:

Thanks for the report on your results!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 
Those measurements I asked for are now impossible to obtain if you trashed the die. Oh well. I seem to do fine with mine using straight cases, having just recently used the Lee system for 32 Long. If it was impossible I could not get it to work as I am not some wonder guy with die adjustment. I'm just an ordinary schmoe.

You indeed would not need the M die if you had the Hornady set, and the recommendation of the purchase of the M die for those that already have one of the other brands of 45-70 dies or are contemplating purchasing them as part of a reloading kit (press, measure, etc.) is not needed as the other brands flare case mouths as well.

It appears to be a matter of adjustment in not getting the results from the Lee.....since the taper is gradual, it should not suddenly go from no flare to an extreme belling of the case mouth. Mine doesn't.
 
Doc, as you have likely read in my posts, I am a very selective and picky buyer of Lee products.

I looked at the Lee neck expander on the net awhile back, and I can see why you never had any positive results.

The last thing I'd want is some long tapered neck expansion. I couldn't see how that die could possibly prove usable.

Maybe it's sale is a good move on their part to sell more collet type crimpers.?.?.?.. :hmmmm:

Thanks for the report on your results!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Crusty, when I started reloading I bought the Lee dies because it was what my father in law had at the time so without checking on other die sets I purchased the lee dies for every rifle and pistol I had... probably not the smartest thing to do.

I probably got a defective expanding die and was so PO'd at the thing I almost took shots at it.. all of my other Lee dies work perfectly and I had no issues setting them up to expand, seat and crimp. So maybe if I had gotten a good one or bought the hornady's or some other dies I wouldnt have got the Lyman but it was been with me since I started loading for the 45-70 and it will stay with me

Doc
 
The Nice thing about the Lyman "M" Die is that you Can Buy Custom Diameter Expander Plugs.
I Got Lucky & Found a Guy that Machines them Himself on ebay.
A Good Machinist Should be Able to Make one Up to Whatever Diameter you Need for Any Boolit Size.
IIRC you Can Even Find them in Carbide or Titanium Nitrided.
IMHO I Believe that the "M" Die Helps the Brass to Last Longer by Not Over Working the Neck.
Personally I Really Like Using the "M" Die & Prefer It Over the Others.
UncleSarge58
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
Keep it comming guys, all we begginers and pre-begginers on reloading can take a LOT from what you are posting.

Yesterday i spoke with a friend from other forum (portuguese forum) that used to reload and he was a rcbs fan, he said that almost everything that he has on reloading is rcbs and, as he is used to buy stuff here in portugal and online he is going to make a checklist of what he thinks that i need to start reloading and where i can find it.
He also said that he was a real fan of the 45-70, that from all his 20ish rifles he always prefered the 45-70 instead of all the others because of the stoping power and the fun that is to use a lever action rifle.

thank you all
 
The custom made M die is a good way to go if you can find them.

Looked at objectively, however, there probably isn't really a reason to prefer the Lyman over the others, as all do pretty much the same thing. Custom made expanders can be made for them as well. Any guy handy with a lathe could manage it.

An expander is pretty much an expander, and if you have it made up to custom larger diameters to fit cast bullets, it's arguably working the case neck more, not less. If the case is sized beforehand, as in with any conventional neck and full length sizing die, that's where the real working occurs. As mentioned, if you want to really work the neck less, the Lee Collet neck sizing die is the way to go, as it never gets oversqueezed in the sizing step.

More relevant for bottleneck cartridges, though. For the 45-70 some amount of partial sizing would have to be applied.
 
yeah Im still waiting on Lee to start taking custom orders again.... I want a collet die for the 6.5X57
I contacted them about 6 months ago and they said they would email when they are taking custom jobs again


Doc
 
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I've use Lee, Lyman & RCBS dies. Don't think I see any difference with any of my levers. Maybe if I was shooting one of those long range sniper guns. But for what I shoot, doesn't seem to make a difference.
 
Well I'm personally very glad that there are so many brands, all at least usable to one degree or another, as that allows each of us to pay our money and make our choice.

I have not used Lyman dies, but expect they would be OK. I have an old set of "CH" dies for my .243 that I've used for years with good results, and my RCBS and Hornady dies work well.

Even the set or two of Lee dies I have bought , worked OK - sad I can't say the same for all their products! - but when I must buy replacement Hornady or RCBS lock rings for the Lee dies to have lock rings that in fact lock and stay where they should as apposed to the hooky "lock & 0 ring" rings found on Lee products, Well, that is more then enough for me not buy Lee sizing dies.

I do have some Lee products but as I have said other times and places, I buy their products selectively and seldom are they my first choice.

Many years back I started with Herters loading equipment, and I also realize that some folk still have and use those products, but guess my dies and press must not have been a good representation of their normal quality. Something about dies that look like they were reamed with a pipe threading tap along with the rest of the mediocre quality of press, powder dribbler etc. made the switch to RCBS not only welcome, but good.

You all know what they say about first impressions.

But then again, that is one more reason to thankful for the wide assortment of possibilities available, something for everyone! That is good!!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
sorry to re-activate this thread, but wich one of these would you choose? the price is the same what changes is the gear on the kit.

Prensa Challenger Brench Lock Kit
Challenger II 50 An. Kit
Turret press kit 4 Posiciones
These are some of the few available in europe, and the spanish gun store delivers in portugal very quickly.
And what about the dies? They have the lee steel ones and others from hornady and lyman (i think).

thank you all.
 
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sorry to re-activate this thread, but wich one of these would you choose? the price is the same what changes is the gear on the kit.

Prensa Challenger Brench Lock Kit


Challenger II 50 An. Kit


Turret press kit 4 Posiciones


These are some of the few available in europe, and the spanish gun store delivers in portugal very quickly.
And what about the dies? They have the lee steel ones and others from hornady and lyman (i think).

thank you all.
Hey B,

If these are your "choices" (and realize that loading equipment is a bit more difficult to come by, in Europe), would go with the 50th Anniversary option. (it comes with a case trimmer)

Later, Mark
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
msharley - the challenger brench lock kit also comes with the trimmer, i think that the GS is putting it extra on both kits!
 
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msharley - the challenger brench lock kit also comes with the trimmer, i think that the GS is putting it extra on both kits!
Hey B,

If that is the case, then "pick your poison". LOL

Either one will serve you well. (wish I could be of more help)

If you are planning on loading a whole lot of ammo, the turret press may be "better". (not needed, just a bit quicker)

Later, Mark
 
biri,

Are there any other choices available?

As msharley says, they will all get er done.

There are just some things I don't like which are specific to that brand.

Now, Lee has a big stable of "likers" but --------------------------

I'd really look at their case trimmer, and if it is the one I know of, I'd not spend any money that direction. Much better are the arbor or lathe type trimmers, RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, Forester etc. etc.

I don't like to make waves, but I do have long established likes and dis-likes which have been formed by the use of different products.

If one of the presses shown in your post is constructed with a cast iron or steel frame, that would get my nod. The more steel and less aluminum in the press, the better.

Keep us posted as to your final choices and your progress with this great and useful pastime.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 
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