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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This summer my tests with the FG .41 mag have been disapointing. I have not been able to get any groups under 2 inches at 100 yds except with some reloads that were commercially produced back in 88.
I'm getting ready to try another batch of reloads with wc820(#9), and also I am putting some experimental loads together with solo4100. This powder is about 10% slower than #9, and designed for the .410 shotgun.
Many of the good pistol powders also have application for .410 shotgun, so I am hoping that it can provide better accuracy than the H-110, and w-296 i've been using.
I will report the results.
RV
 

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RV -

Two quick thoughts:

1) the 41 mag in an 1894 is not a 1895 4570 - the 41 mag is a high intensity cartridge, where a fraction of a grain in powder variance will mean an enlarged groupsize... you're talking about a gun with a non-enclosed bolt (read: unsupported) operating at 40k psi. You're also talking about launching bullets with small sectional densities - nominally not where one would look for tight groups (*) [have you thought about 265gr'ers - the 1:18 barrel will support them?]. In the data we're taking for you, so far the best group has been 1.5" (10 shots at 50yrds), which we'd take as nominal for the 41/1894. In the data we took in '96 for the 41, the best we found was .78" (10 at 50y), but that was a 80% load, ie, wasn't taxing the locking of the action. [hint: if you want a target shooter, you might take a look at the 1895, or a small cal 336.]

2) the other point is: it's been our experience that for any of the 1894's, bullet selection is important (especially for the 41 with its fast twist barrel). The best bullet we found for either the 44 or 41 were sierra's JHC's (210's not 170s for the 41, and 215 for the 44) [assuming you want nominal weight bullets for the calibers].

do shoot straight (even if the gun doesn't want to),
greg
www.gmdr.com

(*) another example of this is the 44-40 which we're just finishing up taking data for: the 200gr rnfp, a "good" group (10 at 50y) ran 2.5-3.5"; by simply swapping to the 240gr rnfp...

www.gmdr.com/levern/2004-1587.jpg

ps. did you download the chronograph display and see the difference in the data btwn the powders?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
gmushial said:
RV -

Two quick thoughts:

1) the 41 mag in an 1894 is not a 1895 4570 - the 41 mag is a high intensity cartridge, where a fraction of a grain in powder variance will mean an enlarged groupsize... you're talking about a gun with a non-enclosed bolt (read: unsupported) operating at 40k psi. You're also talking about launching bullets with small sectional densities - nominally not where one would look for tight groups (*) [have you thought about 265gr'ers - the 1:18 barrel will support them?]. In the data we're taking for you, so far the best group has been 1.5" (10 shots at 50yrds), which we'd take as nominal for the 41/1894. In the data we took in '96 for the 41, the best we found was .78" (10 at 50y), but that was a 80% load, ie, wasn't taxing the locking of the action. [hint: if you want a target shooter, you might take a look at the 1895, or a small cal 336.]

2) the other point is: it's been our experience that for any of the 1894's, bullet selection is important (especially for the 41 with its fast twist barrel). The best bullet we found for either the 44 or 41 were sierra's JHC's (210's not 170s for the 41, and 215 for the 44) [assuming you want nominal weight bullets for the calibers].

do shoot straight (even if the gun doesn't want to),
greg
www.gmdr.com

(*) another example of this is the 44-40 which we're just finishing up taking data for: the 200gr rnfp, a "good" group (10 at 50y) ran 2.5-3.5"; by simply swapping to the 240gr rnfp...

www.gmdr.com/levern/2004-1587.jpg

ps. did you download the chronograph display and see the difference in the data btwn the powders?
You are certainly a wealth of information, and I appreciate you sharing it. I had not even thought of the locking mechanism being a factor. I do notice that the heavier bullets IE 250gr cast cores cause the action to open. I would be satisfied with 2 inch groups from this carbine, but I am determined to get it as good as I can. That .78" group is a goal worth trying.
I just picked up a box of 210 gr sierra last week, and hope that it brings the groups down a little.
My starting loads with the 4100 are 19.5 grns, heavy roll crimp, with CCI 350 primers.
I also have some WC 820 (#9) lot loaded at 18.5 grns to test.
I don't have a factory crimp die so I use the crimp on my seat die.
Please keep me posted. I find your information to be top notch.
RV
 

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R.V., are you using a 'scope on your Marlin .41 Mag.? I get 2" groups at 100 yards from my 1894S in .41 mag., but that is with my Williams 5D Receiver Sight, shooting from the bench. With open sights, that suits me just fine.

As for using a 265 grains bullet in the Marlin, I tried using a 265 grains bullet from Beartooth Bullets, and there was NO WAY it would feed. Too long, etc. I relegated those to my S&W 57. I've heard the 250 Cast Performance will feed but haven't tried them. Frankly, I imagine for all practical purposes, a good 210/215/220 bullet will work for most reasonable applications out in the field... and they all feed fine in my Marlin.

My accuracy in cast bullets comes from 210-215 grains hardcast using both Unique and Blue Dot.

As Greg said, that 210 grains Sierra JHP is a tack driver... at least in my rifle. 18.0 grains of 2400. I bought 500 of them and couldn't be happier. I killed one medium Mule deer with that load, about 90 yards. Deer took a couple of steps and went down. Shot was classic: right behind the shoulder, side to side. Ordinarily when I'm deer hunting I take my .280 Rem., or my .308 Win., but that day I had my Marlin when the opportunity arose. Meat in the freezer.

Several coyotes, jack rabbits, and ground squirrels (squills), have fallen to that same load... but I don't put those in the freezer.

Good luck. L.W.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yup! My 45 year old eyes need the scope. It's a 4x simmons. Seems just right for the FG.
I can get under 2 inches, but not with my reloads. I haven't found the right combo yet.
That's some mighty good shooting with peep sites. Sounds like you got a real shooter there.
 

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I have a box of cast 250's I haven't loaded yet. I'm hoping, as well, that the longer bullet will stablize better. My 170's didn't do very well, either.

My powder selection has been hit and miss. I am a Unique devote but my Marlin seems to like W296 better. I still have quite a bit of experimenting to do before I really sit down and try to get a load to shoot straight.

I have a Williams peep on mine and the best I can get at the moment is about 4" with 18.7grn W296 and a Nosler JHP 210 @ 1500fps at 100yds.

I am discouraged with my FG... but not beat! I see it as a challenge. I waited 8 years for the darn rifle, I think I can work with it that long before I put it up on the block!
 

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I had a 41 Marlin. It would not group jacket bullets. It did good with hard cast lead bullets. But I wanted a general plicking rifle that would double as a light weight carry rifle when scounting new areas to hunt. I got discouraged and traded it off. A few months went by and I got a chance to trade back for it. Big mistake. Finally got discouraged a second time and traded it off again. I do not know why, but some 41 Marlin's do not shoot well.
 

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The old standby of mag cartridges is 2400 my .357CB likes that. When I was shooting a .44 I tried the WW296 it was so so. I did not feel any bullet needed to be clamped in the case for reliably ignition and judged this to be my bane with the accuracy. I tried some H4198 and H4227 they worked well for my rifle. I have never owned a chrony so I could not give you any fps. The H4227 gave me some 1 inch groups at 100. This was with rifle primers, this was after all a 94 winchester. Some times the craziest combinations work for what reason I'll never know. So don't get in a paradigm and think all the usual stuff should work. Sometimes working on the edges of what is recommended works powder wise and bullet wise. I've heard a lot of people complain about the .41 can't say as I would though. I always ask advice whenever I can. When I can't I grab the problem and reduce all the variables. #1 if you don't have it yet get a good trigger job. #2 Do a search on floating the bbl magazine I believe Jonah can help you with that. #3 Slick that action up while you are doing all the other mods. See tech tips at shootersforum. When that trigger job and action job is done. Load some more of the most accurate loads you tested and recheck them. Swany
 

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For what it's worth I have gotten a lot better groups using standard instead of magnum primers with 296 in my 357 and 44 carbines. I mean a night and day difference.
 

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2-3" ain't that bad with a 1894, IMO. Those MOA groups are pretty much exceptions to the rule and internet braggin', I think.
 

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Still no Marlin for me, it's all pistol stuff so far. Not much to add to the issue at hand, but I did get ahold of some Win Supreme 240gr rounds and some CCI Gold Dot 210's. Shot them both through a S&W Classic Hunter with 6.5" barrel and a Blackhawk with a 7.5" barrel (had Ruger re-barrel it for me) and got 1218fps from the 240gr in the S&W. Chrono was acting up with the Blackhawk's turn that day, so no speeds for it. Through the S&W that's 790fpe, imagine it would be a good bit better through your 1894s. Being heavier, it might be turn out better accuracy in them.

I had a scope on the S&W, 4 shots went into 1.25" at 25 yards and that is great for my skill level. Blackhawk result wasn't that good.

The CCI's hit 1343fps in the S&W, 841fpe. In the Blackhawk, 1395fps/908fpe. Accuracy wasn't that great in either, a little better for the S&W. I took the scope off of the S&W, will try each round a couple more times in each gun.

I'll carry the S&W for deer season again, so far have gotten good loadings with the 200gr Speer half-jacket HP and Lil'Gun at 1330fps, factory Win 210 JSP's at 1375fps, the factory 175gr Silvertip Win's at 1300fps and these 240's. The 175's have shot best offhand for me, if I can get one of the others to equal them for field accuracy I'll carry them instead.

I got Lil'Gun to take Sierra 170's to 1582fps in the S&W, 1650fps in the Ruger, 1923fps in a 10" T/C and 2069fps in a 14" T/C. All with CCI 200 primers in Federal cases, powder charges varied. No stress apparent on the cases, Hodgdon does NOT recommend this powder with lighter bullets, especially when the temperature drops, but it worked for the 50 rounds I tried. With the 170 I found 800X to get 1505fps in my S&W and 1596fps in the Ruger, no need for more than that. Accuracy wasn't great, but I've loaded up some more at .5gr less powder to see if that helps in the S&W. If so, that round will be in the running as well!

kgb
 

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tubbythetuba said:
2-3" ain't that bad with a 1894, IMO. Those MOA groups are pretty much exceptions to the rule and internet braggin', I think.
Hence the reason for 10 shot groups - a 3 shot groups ain't worth squat, 5 shot groups are somewhat better... but a 10 shot group is statistically significant (and generally reasonably repeatable). W/re internet bragging: that's why some of us post targets (helps keep the bs level down)... the chinese have an expression: words are many, deeds are few and precious.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com
 

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Dave said:
For what it's worth I have gotten a lot better groups using standard instead of magnum primers with 296 in my 357 and 44 carbines. I mean a night and day difference.
Dave - have to agree... with max loads running only 22 grains (ie, less than a 223 rem) and with 296/h110 not being *that* difficult to ignite... we save the mag primers for 4831 and rl22, and the 70 and 80 grain loads.

do shoot straight,
greg
 

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Swany,

"Some times the craziest combinations work for what reason I'll never know. So don't get in a paradigm and think all the usual stuff should work. Sometimes working on the edges of what is recommended works powder wise and bullet wise"

Very very (almost painfully) true... hence why we ended up taking data on 70+ powders for the 256 win mag this last winter - we kept finding unexpected good results [likewise ended with data on 50+ powders for the 300 wsm... launching 311041's :shock: ].

greg

ps. very glad to see you posting over here.
 

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RV: Try 16 grains of AA#7 behind the 210 grain XTP, I've had real good luck with my .41, 1 1/2-1 3/4" at 100 Yards. (With Scope) 1710 Fps - 1725 Fps over the Chrono. 14 grains of Blue Dot behind the same bullet gave 1635 - 1656 Fps, but not quite as accurate. 220 grain Lyman #410459 cast in linotype gave good accuracy with 16 grains of Blue Dot. Chrono down when this load tested so don't know the FPS. Hope this helps.

Lee L.
 

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gmushial said:
tubbythetuba said:
2-3" ain't that bad with a 1894, IMO. Those MOA groups are pretty much exceptions to the rule and internet braggin', I think.
Hence the reason for 10 shot groups - a 3 shot groups ain't worth squat, 5 shot groups are somewhat better... but a 10 shot group is statistically significant (and generally reasonably repeatable). W/re internet bragging: that's why some of us post targets (helps keep the bs level down)... the chinese have an expression: words are many, deeds are few and precious.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com
What's your point? I still say 2-3" @ 100yd ain't bad AND the MOA 1894 is very, very, VERY rare. What are you trying to set me straight on? :)
 

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gmushial,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your LEVERGUN STUDIES. I have spent a good deal of time working up loads and your info is icing on the cake!
My 357,41m,44m and 45-70 are all grouping well. I can't wait to try your 30-30 loads in my friend's Spikehorn Marlin.
Thanks a lot Greg.
MUZZLEDUSTER :D :D :D :D (one for each Marlin)
 
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