Is it a micro groove barrel?
Swap barrel 336 project...444M barrel
Don't know if this belongs in the 444M thread or the 336 thread, but being's it's a 444M so I'll put it here.
FWIW... 8) ;D ??? :
Got my 444 barrel from Gun Parts today...3 days ahead of schedule - pretty neat as I live way out in the boonies and it usually takes 1-2 days longer than "normal" to get mail and UPS.
The barrel shank measurements were well within tolerances compared to the OEM 30-30 rebored to 356 barrel. 444 shank OD 0.0773" - 0.002" less...shoulder to face 0.645", 0.005" less, hood 1.012", 0.162" MORE...it needs to be trimmed for sure...it wouldn't screw down to receiver face, basically 2 turns off due to the extra hood length. Quick and easy to adjust on a lathe or mill...when the snow QUITS.
Chamber depth including case rim ~2.24"...plenty good for a 2.220" trim length.
Big PROBLEM with the Beartooth 265 WFN's...as the throat is now, the max COAL with that bullet is 2.40" and the bullet is seated about 0.530" deep...WAY past the crimp groove right at the edge where the ogive starts curving. To seat this bullet to 2.68" I will need to throat ~0.280", but I will cut at least 0.600" deep or maybe more, it depends on the other Beartooth 290-330 gr bullets I want to try...they are 0.100" tp 0.180" longer and I want ~0.400" free bore. I will probably buy a throater as the rental is ~$40 including shipping both ways.
I also need to do some judicious motodremel work around the extractor slot, mill the ejector port bottom and front to clear the truncated cone bullet noses. I have a letter off to Marlin to see if I can buy a big loop finger lever or a standard istol grip lever for the 45-70 to clear the larger 444 case rim...I don't want to mess up the 356 Win pieces and parts...although I don't have a problem with 356 W cases clearing, the 444 seems to want to get baulky through the loading gate and there is only about 0.006" difference in rims. Won't know for sure until I get the barrel and mag tube installed.
Eventually I will have the 3/4" mag tube, end cap and dovetail screw mount installed.
Once I get this 444 barrel set up the 375-444 will just be a thread/chamber, contour, slots and dovetails. Midway barrels are already contoured and 26" long so I might end up with a full 26" 375-444...my "Cowboy" 375. ;D
The barrel looks great outside but I haven't cleaned it yet so don't know about the bore, except there isn't any pitting, so a cleaning and polishing will probably do. It's drilled/tapped/dovetailed and slotted for all the normal accouterments.
WHY ??? :-\ am I doing this...there isn't ANY earthly reason for all this monkey motion for sure...the 356 will handle all the woods game I would want to shoot...the 444 would handle even more...and the 375 would do the same. I'm just an oldie wildcatter, got it in my head and it won't go away unless I do it. Besides I have a set of 375-444 dies I need to get some use out of and I wanted to do one for the last 30 odd years. Go figure...WHY does ANYONE do what they do...because they want to.
LUCK
FWIW... 8) ;D ??? :
Got my 444 barrel from Gun Parts today...3 days ahead of schedule - pretty neat as I live way out in the boonies and it usually takes 1-2 days longer than "normal" to get mail and UPS.
The barrel shank measurements were well within tolerances compared to the OEM 30-30 rebored to 356 barrel. 444 shank OD 0.0773" - 0.002" less...shoulder to face 0.645", 0.005" less, hood 1.012", 0.162" MORE...it needs to be trimmed for sure...it wouldn't screw down to receiver face, basically 2 turns off due to the extra hood length. Quick and easy to adjust on a lathe or mill...when the snow QUITS.
Chamber depth including case rim ~2.24"...plenty good for a 2.220" trim length.
Big PROBLEM with the Beartooth 265 WFN's...as the throat is now, the max COAL with that bullet is 2.40" and the bullet is seated about 0.530" deep...WAY past the crimp groove right at the edge where the ogive starts curving. To seat this bullet to 2.68" I will need to throat ~0.280", but I will cut at least 0.600" deep or maybe more, it depends on the other Beartooth 290-330 gr bullets I want to try...they are 0.100" tp 0.180" longer and I want ~0.400" free bore. I will probably buy a throater as the rental is ~$40 including shipping both ways.
I also need to do some judicious motodremel work around the extractor slot, mill the ejector port bottom and front to clear the truncated cone bullet noses. I have a letter off to Marlin to see if I can buy a big loop finger lever or a standard istol grip lever for the 45-70 to clear the larger 444 case rim...I don't want to mess up the 356 Win pieces and parts...although I don't have a problem with 356 W cases clearing, the 444 seems to want to get baulky through the loading gate and there is only about 0.006" difference in rims. Won't know for sure until I get the barrel and mag tube installed.
Eventually I will have the 3/4" mag tube, end cap and dovetail screw mount installed.
Once I get this 444 barrel set up the 375-444 will just be a thread/chamber, contour, slots and dovetails. Midway barrels are already contoured and 26" long so I might end up with a full 26" 375-444...my "Cowboy" 375. ;D
The barrel looks great outside but I haven't cleaned it yet so don't know about the bore, except there isn't any pitting, so a cleaning and polishing will probably do. It's drilled/tapped/dovetailed and slotted for all the normal accouterments.
WHY
??? :-\ am I doing this...there isn't ANY earthly reason for all this monkey motion for sure...the 356 will handle all the woods game I would want to shoot...the 444 would handle even more...and the 375 would do the same. I'm just an oldie wildcatter, got it in my head and it won't go away unless I do it. Besides I have a set of 375-444 dies I need to get some use out of and I wanted to do one for the last 30 odd years. Go figure...WHY does ANYONE do what they do...because they want to.LUCK
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
You're right about wildcats or mods being a money pit if you'r not careful...I wouldn't have done 1/8 of the projects I've done without having a lathe/mill or access to one in the early days.
I don't advocate wildcatting generally, except for the hardcore wildcatter or for a specific project like one of the "oldies but goodies, from the rusty dusty past" nostalgia. For the average hunter shooter anything beyond a rechamber/rebarrel using the same basic case starts getting into deep water and buying a new "standad" rifle is usually more economical, and with the new cases, there is no need to wildcat...except for fun. ;D
By the time you add in the price of custom dies(my last, "last" 50 cal Rigby wildcat dies from CH4D cost $258.00 and took 8 months to arrive)all the monkey motion required to form cases, working up loads, etc...comparing what you end up with in ballistics gain just doesn't add up...sounds very good and has high BS value(be the first on your block to have a 479.73 Ratdiscomboober), but in the end, in this day and age of inexpensive initial rifle costs, it just isn't worth it...not always, but most of the time.
The only reason I did this 444 M first, instead of the 375-444, was the dies were cheap, the barrel was cheaper, it is a "standard", I have the equipment and I can get it done quickly and all by hand or with a drill press, no lathe or mill required actually, as compared to some wildcats that took me 16 months to complete.
The hood took me about 5 minutes with a motodremel to cut to approx length and it will take another 15-45 minutes to mill and taper or grind/polish with a mototdremel and about 10 minutes to cut the mag dovetail with a mill or a couple hours with a file....that's including setup time.
The throat job will take longer as I need to include some load testing at the same time. I don't know about the recontouring of the carrier yet...everything seems to work smoothly, but time will tell.
This barrel DOESN'T have the mag dovetail...that must be the difference in price. I called them for particulars between the two barrels but they missed that slight detail, but that's a minor detail that really won't affect anything initially.
I did check out 4 more bullets from my 44 Maggy supply...300 gr Horn XTPHP, Speer 270 gr Gold Dot, Rem 240 g and 180 gr JHP's. I really liked the two heavier bullets in the pistol, the 240 do very well on deer and downed cattle and the 180 was hell on dumb yodel dogs. and extraneous town/loose dogs on the ranches. Proibably work even better in the "magnumized" magnum version.
Not sure about the pictures yet. I read there was a way to locate where the picture was taken with some digital cameras...untill I find out for certain if my digital camera has that capability or not, I won't be sending any pics online ANYWHERE.
I've been checking out prices and availability online for Marlin 444 and 450 and people are going nutz with the dollar. Doesn't take much to send us hoomans into a panic. ???
LUCK
I don't advocate wildcatting generally, except for the hardcore wildcatter or for a specific project like one of the "oldies but goodies, from the rusty dusty past" nostalgia. For the average hunter shooter anything beyond a rechamber/rebarrel using the same basic case starts getting into deep water and buying a new "standad" rifle is usually more economical, and with the new cases, there is no need to wildcat...except for fun. ;D
By the time you add in the price of custom dies(my last, "last" 50 cal Rigby wildcat dies from CH4D cost $258.00 and took 8 months to arrive)all the monkey motion required to form cases, working up loads, etc...comparing what you end up with in ballistics gain just doesn't add up...sounds very good and has high BS value(be the first on your block to have a 479.73 Ratdiscomboober), but in the end, in this day and age of inexpensive initial rifle costs, it just isn't worth it...not always, but most of the time.
The only reason I did this 444 M first, instead of the 375-444, was the dies were cheap, the barrel was cheaper, it is a "standard", I have the equipment and I can get it done quickly and all by hand or with a drill press, no lathe or mill required actually, as compared to some wildcats that took me 16 months to complete.
The hood took me about 5 minutes with a motodremel to cut to approx length and it will take another 15-45 minutes to mill and taper or grind/polish with a mototdremel and about 10 minutes to cut the mag dovetail with a mill or a couple hours with a file....that's including setup time.
The throat job will take longer as I need to include some load testing at the same time. I don't know about the recontouring of the carrier yet...everything seems to work smoothly, but time will tell.
This barrel DOESN'T have the mag dovetail...that must be the difference in price. I called them for particulars between the two barrels but they missed that slight detail, but that's a minor detail that really won't affect anything initially.
I did check out 4 more bullets from my 44 Maggy supply...300 gr Horn XTPHP, Speer 270 gr Gold Dot, Rem 240 g and 180 gr JHP's. I really liked the two heavier bullets in the pistol, the 240 do very well on deer and downed cattle and the 180 was hell on dumb yodel dogs. and extraneous town/loose dogs on the ranches. Proibably work even better in the "magnumized" magnum version.
Not sure about the pictures yet. I read there was a way to locate where the picture was taken with some digital cameras...untill I find out for certain if my digital camera has that capability or not, I won't be sending any pics online ANYWHERE.
I've been checking out prices and availability online for Marlin 444 and 450 and people are going nutz with the dollar. Doesn't take much to send us hoomans into a panic. ???
LUCK
Luck, well I don't have a 444 bolt either, but I started shaping mine by referencing a 45-70 bolt, and when I finally got it all to fit together (the bolt/barrel) my 30-30 bolt looked pretty much the same as the 45-70 bolt including the extractor claw.
30-30 bolt L, 45-70 R
![]()
You will note that the 45-70 bolt has a slight tapered angle on the little piece above the ejector slot, I ended up tapering this and grinding the nub flat with the bolt face on the 30-30 bolt just like the 45-70..
hope this helps. I was hoping this would be a much simpler conversion than it has turned out, but it has given me a great winter project...
James
30-30 bolt L, 45-70 R
You will note that the 45-70 bolt has a slight tapered angle on the little piece above the ejector slot, I ended up tapering this and grinding the nub flat with the bolt face on the 30-30 bolt just like the 45-70..
hope this helps. I was hoping this would be a much simpler conversion than it has turned out, but it has given me a great winter project...
James
Doesn't seem to be much interest in this project right now but maybe there was in the past and it's anchient history now.
FWIW:
I just ordered a carrier, bolt, mag tube and stud so I will be set to jump several ways when the parts arrive. So far the total cost is $218.75 for all the "outside" pieces and parts. I'm guessing the OEM 3030 bolt even with any mods and the "fiddled" carrier could still work for all the cases.
Any additional calibers using the 284/356/444 cases would be the cost of the chambered barrel/chamber, and basically a barrel screwoff/screwon just like a Savage switch barrel...would only have to remove the forend, magtube and open the lever all the way...totally simple.
Anyone for a 6.5x47 Lapua? Hahahahahaha You could even do a 50 Alaskan, 500 Martin or 50 WSM if you kept the pressures down to ~35KCUP and wanted a REAL thumper. :-\
I mean why not??? A small cal for hunting varmints in the spring/summer, medium for deer/antelope and bigbore for elk/moose Tyrannosaurus Rattus...all at the switch of a barrel...what's not to like... 8) ;D Get some year-round use of of your toy.
The weather is starting to break so I can get started soon on the MB, action clamp out of hardwood and barrel wrench clamp out of alum round stock to fit the Marlin barrel and my barrel wrench tool.
Anyway..I'M on a roll.
LUCK
FWIW:
I just ordered a carrier, bolt, mag tube and stud so I will be set to jump several ways when the parts arrive. So far the total cost is $218.75 for all the "outside" pieces and parts. I'm guessing the OEM 3030 bolt even with any mods and the "fiddled" carrier could still work for all the cases.
Any additional calibers using the 284/356/444 cases would be the cost of the chambered barrel/chamber, and basically a barrel screwoff/screwon just like a Savage switch barrel...would only have to remove the forend, magtube and open the lever all the way...totally simple.
Anyone for a 6.5x47 Lapua? Hahahahahaha You could even do a 50 Alaskan, 500 Martin or 50 WSM if you kept the pressures down to ~35KCUP and wanted a REAL thumper. :-\
I mean why not??? A small cal for hunting varmints in the spring/summer, medium for deer/antelope and bigbore for elk/moose Tyrannosaurus Rattus...all at the switch of a barrel...what's not to like...
8) ;D Get some year-round use of of your toy.The weather is starting to break so I can get started soon on the MB, action clamp out of hardwood and barrel wrench clamp out of alum round stock to fit the Marlin barrel and my barrel wrench tool.
Anyway..I'M on a roll.
LUCK
That's NICE when it goes bang pretty regular...I always thought.
This is actually taking longer than I first thought...at first blush...didn't know about the kink in the mag tube and it looked like the bolt would work without any mods...the rim OD for the 30-30 and 444 are the same and there isn't any difference between the 356 and 444 case except for the longer case length of the 444, so I guessed it would be just a barrel swap as the 2.68" COAL is the same. I will lock the 444 barrel on and the mag tube tomorrow and see how things go.
I'm no machinist but a mill makes doing dovetails easy, just take into consideration the barrel taper...just a simple calculation to level in a vise...or set up on parallel centers or in a spin index/rotary table. Filing by hand just takes patience and a "safe" triangle file.
Did you really need to grind the bolt edge and notch out the bottom? I didn't need to with the 356W so it is a real puzzle to me...and also the carrier mods...it doesn't make sense in light of using the 356 case without any problems and the COAL's being the same. I will know for sure tomorrow...maybe the larger bullet OD makes the difference. "Thought" experiments don't always work in the real world, do they... ??? ;D Hahahahahah
I found a solid firing pin and I will put in a WW Bearproof ejector and trigger maybe. I've already polished and tuned so the trigger is about 2 1/2 lbs right now but flops around like loosy-goosy and the action is nice and smooth..I can't find anything much more to do except muck about with barrel swapping. ;D
It's supposed to warm up a bit so I might get started on the MB also. Haven't decided whether it will be a guzinta or a guzonta. :
Looking forward to your pictures also.
LUCK
This is actually taking longer than I first thought...at first blush...didn't know about the kink in the mag tube and it looked like the bolt would work without any mods...the rim OD for the 30-30 and 444 are the same and there isn't any difference between the 356 and 444 case except for the longer case length of the 444, so I guessed it would be just a barrel swap as the 2.68" COAL is the same. I will lock the 444 barrel on and the mag tube tomorrow and see how things go.
I'm no machinist but a mill makes doing dovetails easy, just take into consideration the barrel taper...just a simple calculation to level in a vise...or set up on parallel centers or in a spin index/rotary table. Filing by hand just takes patience and a "safe" triangle file.
Did you really need to grind the bolt edge and notch out the bottom? I didn't need to with the 356W so it is a real puzzle to me...and also the carrier mods...it doesn't make sense in light of using the 356 case without any problems and the COAL's being the same. I will know for sure tomorrow...maybe the larger bullet OD makes the difference. "Thought" experiments don't always work in the real world, do they... ???
;D HahahahahahI found a solid firing pin and I will put in a WW Bearproof ejector and trigger maybe. I've already polished and tuned so the trigger is about 2 1/2 lbs right now but flops around like loosy-goosy and the action is nice and smooth..I can't find anything much more to do except muck about with barrel swapping. ;D
It's supposed to warm up a bit so I might get started on the MB also. Haven't decided whether it will be a guzinta or a guzonta. :
Looking forward to your pictures also.
LUCK
And I thought I was getting brave changing stocks. Some people have talent, I have to write a check. :-\ Do like reading about it, though. DP
DP
Thanks for the additional info...I always have questions about things that don't seem to fit quite right when it comes to what I actually see/do and what others have done.
My thinking goes this way:
The 3030 and 356W rim is 0.506" OD, and the 444 is 0.514"...actual measurements are ~0.502" and ~0.507" for the Rem and WW cases I have. WHY should there be any problems in feeding the 444M case" if the 356W case doesn't have any feeding issues. ???
The case OD is the same for the 356W, 358W AND 444M at least up to the shoulder...~0.460".
Again...WHY would there be any feeding issues when the cases are identical in OD?
The 356 has NO problems in extracting, ejecting or loading into the mag or chamber at a COAL of 2.67" but 2.68-69" gets a bit touchy depending on the bullets ogive.
I can hand seat the 444M base into the 3030 bolt and under the extractor without any problem...
I can feed the 444 from the 3030 carrier(no leveler, 1980 model) and feed into the 444 chamber, but I can't close the action because the barrel needs a bit more turn to index the extractor notch, but as far as I can see that's the only thing holding up a full lever lock...with the barrel unscrewed one turn so the bolt extracter can go into the notch I get full lockup, and a 444 on the carrier feeds and locks without any appearant problem. I will know this answer soon enough.
If the 356 W case clears the lever, so should the 444M...for all intents and purposes the cases are exactly the same in OD and only different in ~0.200".
I CAN feed 444M cases into the 3030 mag tube hand held and slightly off center but aligned with the barrel I will need to slightly elongate and bevel the inside of the loading port or use the "humpy" tube...that's with a 300 gr Hornady seated to 2.67" COAL...
OR...mill a flat on the lever which seems to solve the problem for James(picketpin)...or BOTH which gives LOTS of room for the bullet end of the case
I also meed to mill Atad more flat on the bottom of the 444S barrel as the mag tube binds against the slightly larger OD 444M barrel at the insertion point.
BUT...I've been accused of thinking like a frog, backwards and upside down many times, so...??? ;D
When my 444 parts get here and when I can get to my lathe I will answere ALL these questions for certain and post what I came up with and the LEAST amount of 'smithing required to convert a 3030 to a 444M for those who might want to do a conversion or another caliber.
AS it is now, you should be able to convert a 3030 to any caliber up to 375 with just a rebore/rebarrel using a 356/358/284/444 case and NO other mods.
LUCK
My thinking goes this way:
The 3030 and 356W rim is 0.506" OD, and the 444 is 0.514"...actual measurements are ~0.502" and ~0.507" for the Rem and WW cases I have. WHY should there be any problems in feeding the 444M case" if the 356W case doesn't have any feeding issues. ???
The case OD is the same for the 356W, 358W AND 444M at least up to the shoulder...~0.460".
Again...WHY would there be any feeding issues when the cases are identical in OD?
The 356 has NO problems in extracting, ejecting or loading into the mag or chamber at a COAL of 2.67" but 2.68-69" gets a bit touchy depending on the bullets ogive.
I can hand seat the 444M base into the 3030 bolt and under the extractor without any problem...
I can feed the 444 from the 3030 carrier(no leveler, 1980 model) and feed into the 444 chamber, but I can't close the action because the barrel needs a bit more turn to index the extractor notch, but as far as I can see that's the only thing holding up a full lever lock...with the barrel unscrewed one turn so the bolt extracter can go into the notch I get full lockup, and a 444 on the carrier feeds and locks without any appearant problem. I will know this answer soon enough.
If the 356 W case clears the lever, so should the 444M...for all intents and purposes the cases are exactly the same in OD and only different in ~0.200".
I CAN feed 444M cases into the 3030 mag tube hand held and slightly off center but aligned with the barrel I will need to slightly elongate and bevel the inside of the loading port or use the "humpy" tube...that's with a 300 gr Hornady seated to 2.67" COAL...
OR...mill a flat on the lever which seems to solve the problem for James(picketpin)...or BOTH which gives LOTS of room for the bullet end of the case
I also meed to mill Atad more flat on the bottom of the 444S barrel as the mag tube binds against the slightly larger OD 444M barrel at the insertion point.
BUT...I've been accused of thinking like a frog, backwards and upside down many times, so...???
;DWhen my 444 parts get here and when I can get to my lathe I will answere ALL these questions for certain and post what I came up with and the LEAST amount of 'smithing required to convert a 3030 to a 444M for those who might want to do a conversion or another caliber.
AS it is now, you should be able to convert a 3030 to any caliber up to 375 with just a rebore/rebarrel using a 356/358/284/444 case and NO other mods.
LUCK
Today it is beautiful, warm sunshiney and the parts arrived...ONLY MURPHY stuck his &&&&&& in the pot. Gun Parts Corp sent me a bolt for a 35 Remington, the 444 case wouldn't fit into the bolt face recess and the Carrier assembly was also wrong also...it has a couple extra parts on it like a cartridge lifter which I don't want or need...BUT the mag tube was right at least. Some days it just don't pay to get outta bed.
I had to do a little more grinding on the barrel hood so the little nubbin on the side opposite the extractor would clear...could have nipped off the nubbin but I didn't want to modify the OEM 356 w parts.
When I had the 356 W barrel done, Jess also sent me a letter and a couple drawing of what I might need to do the the carrier front and extractor...basically just reshape slightly like you did, James, but I didn't really need to then and maybe not now.
I have all the pieces and parts stripped out of the receiver so there is sits until I get the throater and finish the barrel.
I did have to take ~0.003" off the barrel shoulder to index the sights. There are several ways to index but not wanting to mess up the 356 W barrel index, I did the 444 barrel shoulder instead of the receiver face.
I will also have to mill/file the flat on the bottom of the 444 barrel at the chamber end another 0.005" or so and take off a few thou on the groove to fit the new mag tube. Probably not needed as the tube will fit, but it is tight and is a good place to cause strange vibrations as the tube empties of cartridges.
I like the shorter mag tube so I will order the pieces and parts to convert to the new style forend with the steel cap, then do a little wood work to get the forend to fit to BOTH the 356 W and the 444. Those parts are available at Midway and Brownells also and will get here much quicker than from NY and Gun Parts Corp and will get them ordered in the next couple days. That will add about $40 to the total, bringing it up to ~$260.
Anyway...it is hurry up and wait...and the weather is supposed to get nasty again for the weekend.
LUCK
I had to do a little more grinding on the barrel hood so the little nubbin on the side opposite the extractor would clear...could have nipped off the nubbin but I didn't want to modify the OEM 356 w parts.
When I had the 356 W barrel done, Jess also sent me a letter and a couple drawing of what I might need to do the the carrier front and extractor...basically just reshape slightly like you did, James, but I didn't really need to then and maybe not now.
I have all the pieces and parts stripped out of the receiver so there is sits until I get the throater and finish the barrel.
I did have to take ~0.003" off the barrel shoulder to index the sights. There are several ways to index but not wanting to mess up the 356 W barrel index, I did the 444 barrel shoulder instead of the receiver face.
I will also have to mill/file the flat on the bottom of the 444 barrel at the chamber end another 0.005" or so and take off a few thou on the groove to fit the new mag tube. Probably not needed as the tube will fit, but it is tight and is a good place to cause strange vibrations as the tube empties of cartridges.
I like the shorter mag tube so I will order the pieces and parts to convert to the new style forend with the steel cap, then do a little wood work to get the forend to fit to BOTH the 356 W and the 444. Those parts are available at Midway and Brownells also and will get here much quicker than from NY and Gun Parts Corp and will get them ordered in the next couple days. That will add about $40 to the total, bringing it up to ~$260.
Anyway...it is hurry up and wait...and the weather is supposed to get nasty again for the weekend.
LUCK
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
