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Bill, I don't have data for a 450 grain cast, my notes are for a 405 grain cast and jacketed.
Maybe try to find the Lyman cast bullet data for .45/70 and see if they have starting loads for a 450 cast.
With a 405 cast, 36.5 grains of IMR3031 and 27.0 grains of IMR4198 both got 1150 fps. in my 1895.
The 27.0 of 4198 load is very accurate in my 18.5" 1895, and has become my favorite plinking load. I don't know if I'd want to go much below 1150 fps.
I do have an 8 lb. keg of Universal, which is almost like Unique in burning rate. I want to load up some, as 14 grains of Unique is said to give 1200 fps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Sandog> I've looked at several reloading manuals, but there seems to be a gap between 405 and 500gr. The 450gr FN Cast are from a Lee Precision mold and the 450gr FN-FMJ are from Alaska Bullet Works (Juneau). Looking to avoid the detonation dangers of a reduced load... just looking for a Starting Load.
 

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44.0gr of H4198 under a 425gr Piledriver in a Starline case gets 1,780 ft/sec when fired from my 1895SBL.

Not exactly what you're looking for but probably close enough to get you started.
 

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Heavy lead bullets take up a lot of room in the case. This leaves less room for powder and makes smaller charges of faster burning powder a good choice. I often use 4198 for this reason.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
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Charlie-NY> I firmly agree... "Heavy lead bullets take up a lot of room in the case. This leaves less room for powder and makes smaller charges of faster burning powder a good choice. I often use 4198 for this reason." My only question remains... what would be a 450gr Starting Load for H4198? QUESTION... Was your 44.0gr of H4198 a MAX load, i.e., had you gotten pressure signs at higher that 44.0? If so, then 10% less than 44.0 could be a starting load for H4198 with a 425gr Piledriver in my 1895. And, less than that with a 450gr CAST. And, even less than that for a 450gr FMJ... there are 2 reasons for this... FIRST, a FMJ creates more friction than a Cast bullet... SECOND, a 450gr FMJ is longer than a 450gr Cast. and, therefore takes-up even more cartridge case room

I think this makes sense, what do you think? BTW, can I assume Beartooth Bullets is the supplier of your 425gr "piledriver"?

Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Heavy lead bullets take up a lot of room in the case. This leaves less room for powder and makes smaller charges of faster burning powder a good choice. I often use 4198 for this reason.
Charlie-NY> Guess my real concern in starting to develop a new load is always the same. That is, without knowing a recommended Starting Load (for a particular bullet), we're left with the chance of not knowing if our "guess" is a good Starting Load, or, is it a (dangerous) reduced load? I firmly agree that "smaller charges of faster burning powder" are a good general rule if you know that you must deal with less case room due to developing that new load with a heavier bullet (your 425gr vs my 450gr). Or, even worse, if the new bullet has a FMJ (versus a Cast bullet).

Bill
 

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Bill,

I am assuming your loading for a Marlin rifle, so I'll go from there.

I shoot a RUGER, so have plenty of head room/safety margin but I still faced the same confusion when first beginning to develop loads for my rifle.

But something that helped me a lot is this thought, ANYTHING listed for a Springfield Trapdoor from a reputable source will be safe in your Marlin.

So, if you don't already, get yourself a copy of the 4th addition Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook in which you will find LOTS of Trapdoor data from which to start. They list data for bullets from 292gr up to 540gr, ten different bullet weights in total, including the 450gr.

Then any data you find for a "jacketed" bullet of 450gr +/- would be safe with a cast bullet !

I'm shooting a 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast at 1650fps, using 47.5gr of H335 in my RUGER.

If using a WFN cast, you don't need warp velocity to get er done, in fact early in my 45/70 experience I used a 355gr at a muzzle velocity of 2300fps and NEVER AGAIN want to see that big of a wound channel!!!!!!!!!! The heavier bullet at a much slower velocity is just soooo much better in a number of ways and has for me, accounted for a growing pile of deer and 3 elk.

I'll agree that load data for the Marlin is LACKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in and around your selected bullet weight, some which I am at a loss to understand considering that I have cycled my loads in a through Marlins with zero problems. I have NOT test fired my loads in that rifle.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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Like Crusty I also shoot a 465gr cast and the match rifle accurate load for my SBL is 46gr of H335. I tried 4198 but did not like the performance. Developing loads is a lot of trial and error with caution being the most important. And like Crusty the Lyman 50th Reloading and the Lyman Cast Bullet manual are my go to books.
 
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Hodgdon's Reloading data list 28gr-32gr of H4198 for a 485gr bullet. These are trapdoor loads that don't exceed 20K CUP. If you are shooting a Marlin even 32gr would be a very light load.
You could easily start at 32gr and get comfortable with your rifle and reloads. It should get you about 1,500 ft/sec. You will have plenty of room for growth if you want it.
CDOC has more experience with the 465gr cast bullet than anyone I know. Both him and O29 recommended H335. That would be good enough for me.
Personally, I'm sold on jacketed bullets and Barnes monos, so what do I know. LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Crusty Deary Ol Coot> Logical and perfect! ---Thank You!

Yes, any load that's safe in a Trap Door Springfield will also be safe in my Marlin 1895!
And, yes, safe load data for a Jacketed bullet will also be a safe load for a cast bullet (of the same weight)!

Great observation: You solved my question of finding a Starting Load that's larger than a (dangerous) Reduced Load.
I will pick-up copies of the...
--- 4th Edition Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook,
--- Lyman 50th Reloading Manual.

Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Hodgdon's Reloading data list 28gr-32gr of H4198 for a 485gr bullet. These are trapdoor loads that don't exceed 20K CUP. If you are shooting a Marlin even 32gr would be a very light load.
You could easily start at 32gr and get comfortable with your rifle and reloads. It should get you about 1,500 ft/sec. You will have plenty of room for growth if you want it.
CDOC has more experience with the 465gr cast bullet than anyone I know. Both him and O29 recommended H335. That would be good enough for me.
Personally, I'm sold on jacketed bullets and Barnes monos, so what do I know. LOL
Charlie-NY> Here's what I don't understand. You went to the faster 4198... from (the slower) 3031... bcs 4198 needs less powder. Yet, both you and Crusty Deary Ol Coot both use H335 which is slower than 3031 ?

Bill
 

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Charlie-NY> Here's what I don't understand. You went to the faster 4198... from (the slower) 3031... bcs 4198 needs less powder. Yet, both you and Crusty Deary Ol Coot both use H335 which is slower than 3031 ?

Bill
You misread my comments. I use H4198 because it has worked well for me and it has low volume. It is possible for some powders to be too bulky to fit beneath heavy lead bullets, depending on the charge weight. H4198 has always shot great for me with both lead and jacketed bullets. It also works well IMO with light and heavy bullets in the 45-70.
With regard to your original question - CDOC has been shooting lead bullets in a similar weight to your intended bullet, and done so extensively. Therefore, I would rely on his input for your application. Personally, I don't use H335. I am down to two powders for the 45-70; H4198 and RE7 which gave outstanding accuracy (1/2moa) under a 350 Swift A-Frame bullet.

Fortunately MANY powders will work in the 45-70.
 

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There doesn't seem to be a lot of 45/70 with H335 info out there.

However, the maker of my 465gr Wide Flat Nose mold among other tips told me to try 47.5gr of H335 and in spite of testing a bunch of other powders I keep coming back to that powder and charge level.

There are a bunch of other good 45/70 powders, but as said, in my rifle with my bullet I keep coming back to what has given the best results, in spite of testing a bunch of well proven 45/70 powders.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Bill,

I am assuming your loading for a Marlin rifle, so I'll go from there.

I shoot a RUGER, so have plenty of head room/safety margin but I still faced the same confusion when first beginning to develop loads for my rifle.

But something that helped me a lot is this thought, ANYTHING listed for a Springfield Trapdoor from a reputable source will be safe in your Marlin.

So, if you don't already, get yourself a copy of the 4th addition Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook in which you will find LOTS of Trapdoor data from which to start. They list data for bullets from 292gr up to 540gr, ten different bullet weights in total, including the 450gr.

Then any data you find for a "jacketed" bullet of 450gr +/- would be safe with a cast bullet !

I'm shooting a 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast at 1650fps, using 47.5gr of H335 in my RUGER.

If using a WFN cast, you don't need warp velocity to get er done, in fact early in my 45/70 experience I used a 355gr at a muzzle velocity of 2300fps and NEVER AGAIN want to see that big of a wound channel!!!!!!!!!! The heavier bullet at a much slower velocity is just soooo much better in a number of ways and has for me, accounted for a growing pile of deer and 3 elk.

I'll agree that load data for the Marlin is LACKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in and around your selected bullet weight, some which I am at a loss to understand considering that I have cycled my loads in a through Marlins with zero problems. I have NOT test fired my loads in that rifle.

Crusty Deary Ol Coot

Crusty Deary Ol Coot
>

Just thought to let you know I ordered three (3) books today that'll be received by next Fri (May 4th)...
- Lyman 50th Edition Reloading Manual,
- Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition,
- Lee Precision Modern Reloading 2nd Edition New Format.

My Hornady, Speer, Sierra (only for their 300gr JHP) and Nosler didn't meet the idea of 10 bullet weights for Trap Door, lower-power, 45-70 loads! I've used these reloading manuals for my 280Rem, 22-250 and 45ACP.

Again, thank you for your great advice... gonna feel like Christmas here by next Friday.

Bill
 
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