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Each State has/had a RIGHT to leave the union. After seceding, they were no longer members of the United States. No Treason.

The States declared their independence from Great Britain. That was not Treason either. Of course if the US LOST that war, they would have been hung. King George was a Tyrant.


Mike T.
 
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I believe it is those who proudly display the 'stars and bars' and protest the renaming of forts who are trying to ignore/ change history. Those Confederate soldiers committed treason against the United States of America. (Just as G. Washington committed treason against his sovereign King). That is the historical reality. The Commander in Chief PARDONED them. A pardon does not mean 'you did not do it.' The 'Stars and Bars' is a symbol of treason.
Most of the union soldiers would disagree with you. The war was a turning point in the history of this once great country. In fact most of the veterans that were alive at the turn of the century were in favor of Confederate veterans being recognized as American veterans. And guess what they are recognized as American veterans! Who do you think provides the headstones? The VA that's who. Making the argument that they were traitors does great disservice to those who served. The people at that time considered them selves to be citizens of whichever state they resided in. Look a little more deeply. Check out General Gracie sp? He's buried in New York City. The mayor's home is named for his family. Or the history of the Roosevelt family. Lots of southern leaning for a strong Union family. Read what Patrick Cleburne wrote about what would happen if the South lost. The majority of people of that time didn't consider them to be traitors. Some did, but then again so did people believe that when this country came to be too. But I will tell you when Lee took his army north that was the first time war was brought to northern states. The war was primarily fought on Southern ground and war was brought to the civilians of the south. That is true! So if the southern soldier was a traitor the the whole of the Union army were war criminals. Shelby Foote wrote volumes about the war. Warts and all and at one time he was asked were he stood. He stated he would have fought for the south. The average soldier fought for home, nothing more. Rich man's fight poor mans war period. I would do the same today. So does that make me a traitor? I believe that makes me patriot. Would I go to another state to force them to comply with something they don't want? Nope. Same thing then same thing today. Would I go to defend them if the were attacked by an outside party? Yep,absolutely. Do you believe states do have rights to do what their citizens want? I do!

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Wilsonkemp790:

Agreed. Well Said! Burning Petard has a very shallow view of the allegiance to people's native states were back in that period of our History. Robert E Lee was offered the command of the Union Army right after South Carolina Fired on Fort Sumter. He was called back to Washington DC after serving in Texas. He was called into Mr. Blair's office in Washington and Blair told him that President Lincoln was offering him the Command of the Union Army. Lee took a day to think it over. General Lee refused the offer. Why? Lee referenced how many generations of his family were native Virginians. (I forgot how many he stated) Lee said "He could NOT draw his sword against his native state". In addition, Lee did not approve of President Lincoln "Invading his own country" with armed forces of the Union to FORCE them to remain in the Union. :confused:

It was a very divided time in our History. What we are facing today registers as very divided too. I fear we are going to be faced with another Civil War. There is no compromising with the baby killers. :mad:




Mike T.
 

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The Southern States would never accept a LARGE central government. In addition to the money the cotton states were paying into that bogus Tariff TAX by the Washington Government, they warned us what would happen if an over-bearing LARGE national government would do if it was allowed to exist. We are seeing the results of what southern leaders warned us about now. :mad:

Mike T.
 

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Miket156 is right on. That is exactly why the Southern States split from the Union. Slavery was not the reason.
SSG Ret.
TN & TX ARNG 66-06
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The other thing to consider is that the Southern States were INDEPENDENT Sovereign States. That was stated in the Declaration of Independence. They would NOT allow the Washington government to tell them how to run THEIR states. It was none of their business.

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All talk about legality and authorizing the right to succeed is moot. Southerners then or any people today don't require permits to abolish tyranny in their lives. Just because it may or may not have been in the Constitution or that any government writes laws forbidding secession does not and cannot mean that freemen must labor forever under a tyrannical system, if that system exists. It is the God given right of free people to achieve liberty and happiness....by any means, regardless of what a government demands.
 

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Im a damned yankee who has a great admiration for southern culture and history, and I am AGAINST changing the names of military forts. First of all, the War Between the States was not "over slavery"-even Lincoln refused to free slaves in states that remained with the Union and he never said it was over slavery, rather over secession. Lincoln wanted to send all slaves back to Africa. Second, hundreds, if not thousands of African-Americans were killed and lynched in the North (see the 1863 draft riots in NYC). Third, the majority of soldiers for the Stars and Bars did not own slaves. History is a lot more complicated when you actually learn it.
 

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I too was born north of the Mason-Dixon Line, as in a Yankee state. The "typical" self appointed historian may have a different opinion than mine. Imagine what a boring world it would be if we all agreed!!

That said, I would NEVER belong to a club that I could not LEAVE if I so chose because I disagree with what they do, what they say, or charge me TOO MUCH money to belong, The Washington government was changing the Cotton states a Tariff when they sold their cotton to other countries. That Tariff was not small change. It caused yet another reason for South Carolina to Secede. The Existence of Slavery was an issue, but it was NOT Washington's business to decide. I will always believe that the Southern States had the right to Secede. It was Lincoln and the Tyrants in Washington that decided to invade the southern states and force them to remain in the union. :mad:

I am against re-naming Forts, Streets, and tearing down monuments of historic people. Marxists Mayors and governors decide, whether we like it or not. Judging by the action of the so called Biden administration, and the former Democrat party, we are headed for big trouble.

Mike T.
 

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I am against re-naming Forts, Streets, and tearing down monuments of historic people. Marxists Mayors and governors decide, whether we like it or not. Judging by the action of the so called Biden administration, and the former Democrat party, we are headed for big trouble.

Mike T.
Mike, every time I read a new book about personal experiences of those who lived before, during and after the war I find way too many similarities that mirror our present situation of disunity and anger. And it seems to me the main culprit is one political party or another that maligns truth with an effort to keep or attain power...to the detriment of the people. I agree we are headed for big trouble if we can't find a way to become Americans again and not political pawns.
 

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meeester

That's really a shame. A lot of problems we run into is that local and state government is loaded with Marxists Traitors that hate our country. The PA governor Tom Wold fits that description. He Vetoes every bill the GOP lead House and senate puts in front of him. Unless a bill comes across his desk that satisfied the Agenda of the woke idiots, hie vetoes it. We are going to get a new governor shortly, but the cities usually have the votes to carry the state, so there's a good chance we will have another Woke governor after that other Traitor is gone. :mad:

Mike T.
 
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Mike, every time I read a new book about personal experiences of those who lived before, during and after the war I find way too many similarities that mirror our present situation of disunity and anger. And it seems to me the main culprit is one political party or another that maligns truth with an effort to keep or attain power...to the detriment of the people. I agree we are headed for big trouble if we can't find a way to become Americans again and not political pawns.
As a US Army Veteran, I can honestly say that there is NO WAY civilians could stand up to US Army forces if it ever comes to that. The only chance we have is if the National Guard refuses to take illegal orders from the Marxists idiots in charge. Our Armed forces would make short work of civilians. :(

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Renaming the military forts and removing statues that honor soldiers and leaders of the Confederate States of America does not re-write or change history. Nor do I believe that it halts the teaching of history. Instead, I believe that it teaches it more accurately. It does so by removing the places of honor given to those individuals. The history is still taught, but now it can be taught without trying to honor those that fought to destroy the United States of America.

I see two ways to look at it:
- The leaders, especially the military leaders, took an oath to the United States of America. They benefited from their citizenship and the opportunities available to them as Americans. In 1861, they turned on their country. We do not erect statues of Benedict Arnold, even though he was a valiant patriot at first. He besmirched that when he betrayed America to the British. He was hanged for his treason and is remembered accordingly - no statues, street names, school names, etc. Generals Lee, Longstreet, Hood, Bragg, and many others are equally traitors and should not be given a place of honor.
- The leaders of the Confederate States of America represented a nation that was antagonist towards and fought a war against the United States of America. We do not build statues or name schools, bases, etc for Lord Cornwallis, Field Marshal Rommel, Admiral Hiromoto, or any other individual or group that has waged war against the United States of America. We should not do so for anyone of the Confederate States of America, either.

History should be studied and remembered, lest we forget the lessons of history. The military and political history of the Civil War should be taught. Both sides had valiant, dedicated, and talented leaders and individuals; but, the same is true of every conflict that has involved the USA. Monuments and statues depicting that history are appropriate in the state and national parks that preserve the history by preserving the battlefields and significant locations. However, in America, we name bases, streets, schools, and parks as a way of conferring honor on an individual or a group. Statues and monuments built in city parks, government buildings, and other public places are also constructed to honor the individual or group. Removing the names of Confederate individuals from bases, schools, streets, etc and removing their statues from places of honor does not rewrite history. It does, however, place those individuals into the position of dishonor where they belong.
Benedict Arnold was not hanged. After Cornwallis's surrender, Arnold moved to St. John, New Brunswick (Canadian Maritimes) and later to London. He died of edema at 60 in London in 1801. My fourth grade teacher (1957-'58 school year in Cheshire, Connecticut) claimed to have been one of his descendants.
 

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Mike I agree. The fire power that the Army alone could bring is substantial and would bring disaster to anyone fighting them. Sadly the Army I knew for 21 years and left 20 years ago is not the Army of today. I believe they'd fire on civilians in a heartbeat, I don't trust them to do otherwise. This is the America of today.
 

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I don’t agree with changing the names of forts, streets, schools or whatever. That’s history you’re changing. Hopefully we learn from history. So you’re saying it never happened?
Okay. You get ride of cancel culture and woke. Will the names reappear and the monuments come back?
 

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Other issues I would like to add: Have you ever wondered WHY Jefferson Davis was not Tried for Treason after he was captured and locked up in Prison? Jefferson Davis told the Washington government that Southern states had a RIGHT to leave the Union. He ASKED for the opportunity to PROVE IT in Court. The Washington government decided to give Davis Bail and set him Free. NO TRIAL.

President Lincoln had said after LEE Surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia that there would be NO HANGINGS and no Retribution against Southern leaders and Southern solders provided they did not take up Arms against the Union Forces again.

After Lincoln was assassinated and that drunken piece of garbage Andrew Johnson was president, he wanted Robert E LEE tried for Treason. Take a wild guess who stepped forward to Lee's Defense?
General Grant, by then a 4 star general and still in command of the US Army. He told Johnson that if he brought up charges of Treason against Lee, Johnson would be violating the terms of Lee's Surrender. Specifically. ALL soldiers of the Army of Northern Virginia were give Paroles and were allowed to go home after swearing allegence to the US, not take up arms against the US and obey the Laws where they lived once they got home. ALL Confederate solders were given printed Paroles before they left for home. It took 3 days after the surrender for all those Paroles to be printed and they could return home. If Johnson tried to bring Charges of Treason against LEE, General Grand would RESIGN. That put a stop to Johnson's Tyranny.

Mike T.
Grant was a lieutenant general (3 star), the first to hold that rank since George Washington. In 1866 Grant also facilitated Pickett's return to the U.S. from Canada without the latter's being tried for the war crime of executing North Carolina militia members for desertion, who had never sworn allegiance to the Confederacy.
 
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