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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
All loads were with:

Starline brass that was sized 2.095
CCI LRP
LaserCast 405 HC
COAL 2.513
All charges were hand weighed after the electronic scale was tested with check weights.

I started at the 50 yard range. First 4 rounds were 36.5 with the 1st round hitting 3" high. The next 3 rounds were between 1-2 " high. Not cloverleaf but close enough for the hawgs. Next 3 were the 38.5 and they were near the same. Moved to the 100 yard range and had the RO sight her in with his sled. He sighted at a 44 yard target then out to 100 yards. We were both surprised to see the rounds hitting in the same spot at each distance. Then things fell apart. We let the barrel cool down after every three shots but there was no consistency. They were all over the place! We could only assume that my 1895G does not like this load.

We switched to the 36.5 load with consistent results: we sighted her in at 44 yards @ 2" high which gave us 1" low at 100 yards. Various forum members suggested a 2" high at 50 would be dead on at 100. You guys were very close!

I finished by testing loads of 25.0 gr of 2400 with everything else the same. We expected these rounds be hit lower and they did. They were 1" low at 44 yards and 4" low at 100.

I'm open to hear any comments.
 

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My guide gun was good to go with loads from 36.5 -38 grns, group size was 3/4" to 1 1/4 .37 was 3/4, 36.5 was1",37.5 was 1" and 38 was 1 1/4" all at fifty yds. Speed were 36.5 =1475 av--- 37 =1530 av----37.5 =1575---38=1580, was most consistent but opened up a little, could have been me. After 1600 fps they opened and strung badly. All shots through a chrony and shot off of bags mostly to check speed of the 405 hard cast bullets, love my laser cast bullets.:tee:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
griz: thanks for posting the speeds. I haven't had an opportunity to chrono any of these loads.
 

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Thanks for the info! My 1895GS likes same formula(IMR4198) under 29g for 405g Oregon Trail (OTC) and 35.3g for the 300g OTC. Very accurate powder for me also with Speer jacketed. I also like 3031 from IMR for 400g Speer from 47g to 50g. I have had so much fun learning and testing different loads. Most of the time I use my Lee classic handloader but occasionally I'll do some steps in my Hornady Progressive.
 

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Hey Shorty,

Why would you want to shoot jacketed bullets in a 45-70? A good cast bullet will do anything that a jacketed bullet will do.....at 1/3 the cost.
 

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Hey Shorty,

Why would you want to shoot jacketed bullets in a 45-70? A good cast bullet will do anything that a jacketed bullet will do.....at 1/3 the cost.
Any recomendations? I can't seem to find anybody who has good cast bullets with gas checks available.
 

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Any recomendations? I can't seem to find anybody who has good cast bullets with gas checks available.
Home Trueshot is the gas check version of laser cast

TrueShot® projectiles will feature the same exceptional alloy and also
provide shooters with a selection of bullet weights previously unavailable in
cast bullets. Thanks to their uniform grain structure, these hard-hitting
heavyweights will give you the awesome penetration that you need. Their
advanced design and flawless consistency make them ideal for any shooting
sport that demands pinpoint accuracy. Here’s the best part,
TrueShot®
bullets
cost less than half of what comparable jacketed bullets do!
 
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JB, when I first got my gun that was the only thing on the shelf and I was a "newbie" went over to cast soon after from recommendations from this site after a few weeks precisely for that reason plus the fact that they shot well in my gun. but I still have those that I tested back when I started as I wanted to build loads for hunting things here in NV. Both cast and jacketed. Have some in HP, also.
 

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Hey Shorty,

Why would you want to shoot jacketed bullets in a 45-70? A good cast bullet will do anything that a jacketed bullet will do.....at 1/3 the cost.


'Cause I have a bunch of Rem. 405gr SPs I bought back when they were available & reasonably priced?:flute:

But when they are gone I have a 450gr NEI RNFP GC mould ready & waiting!!!
 

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Hey guys.

If you have 'em smoke 'em.......or rather shoot them. I didn't intend to imply that "j" bullets were no good, I was just curious why you would buy jacketed bullets when cast are less than half in price. Jacketed bullets, hollow point bullets, and sometimes gas checks are a useless extra expense. Cast bullets are best at 1300 to 1600 fps velocity and my rifles show no signs of leading with plain base bullets at those speeds. I do use gas checks on 30-30 and smaller bullets, but 38-55 to 45 cal. they are not needed. YMMV

JB
 

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JB, I understood ya bro. I like loading at that speed w cast for 2 reasons that I've learned from here and on the range. 1- they are easier on the shoulder and 2- it killed a lot of things back in the day and they are accurate more importantly! Cheers!
 

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Hey guys.

If you have 'em smoke 'em.......or rather shoot them. I didn't intend to imply that "j" bullets were no good, I was just curious why you would buy jacketed bullets when cast are less than half in price. Jacketed bullets, hollow point bullets, and sometimes gas checks are a useless extra expense. Cast bullets are best at 1300 to 1600 fps velocity and my rifles show no signs of leading with plain base bullets at those speeds. I do use gas checks on 30-30 and smaller bullets, but 38-55 to 45 cal. they are not needed. YMMV

JB
Thanks for your experience.I just may have to give the plain base bullets a try.I like the velocity range that you give for them.Those speeds won't hurt my bad shoulder so much.I thought that gas checks solved the problem of leading but if plain base will not lead at those speeds then I am one for saving money.As you can tell,I am not real up on the cast bullet scene but since I enjoy shooting so much,I have to do something to save.
 

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I have shot a LOT of cast bullets in the .45-70 & they do work really well, in fact one of my favorite loads in the .45-70 is a 405 gr lead moly-lube bullet at a chronographed 1088fps. Talk about fun!!!:biggrin:
When my supply of jacketed bullets dwindles I'll go back to cast with no looking back.
 

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Do hard cast bullets need gas checks? I am shooting laser cast bullets 300 grain and 350 grain and have had no leading problems. As far as accuracy I am still fiddling with my scope so have no real hard opinion yet. Powders used 3031, 4198, 8208, and Trail Boss. A question I have is can one load leverevolution 325 grain bullets on regular brass and not the short lever brass?
 

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It would be somewhat marginal as whether it would work. I think it would be a matter to check out with each individual rifle. As long as the Leverevolution loaded cartridge just drops into the chamber you probably would be OK. If it is a tight fit that would probably meat that the bullet is jammed into the rifling which could result in dangerous pressure spikes. I have not had a reason or opportunity to test those gummy round in my rifles so I have no hands on experience.
 

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Shootindentist,

First, the term "hard cast" is so over used and over worked as to mean nothing. Harder cast then what?

Lead is very soft, Linotype is, in comparison, very hard but there are alloys softer then linotype which are referred to as, "hard cast."

So, be that as it may, just understand that unless someone gives a real life figure as to the alloy/bullet hardness, who can really know.

As to your question about "hard cast" bullets needing gas checks, the answer is, depends.

First on the bullet to bore fit which is well known to be very important, then the quality of the bullet lube is a major player, the velocity, the alloy AND THE QUALITY of the bore.

You could have cast bullets that are reasonably hard or even very hard and still get leading, if those bullets were not a good fit to the bore and therefore sealed the bullet to the bore during firing, which prevents hot gasses from eroding/melting bullet metal ahead of the bullet's base.

In that case, a gas check might not even solve the problem. Back to bullet to bore fit.

Just as an example of hard bullets and leading, some revolvers have cylinder throats which are under sized. When the gun is fired, the bullet is forced through the undersize throat before reaching the forcing cone of the barrel, and should the bullet be hard enough and the pressures low enough, the "hard" bullet will not expand/bump up enough when passing through the forcing cone to ever seal the bullet to the bore and suddenly even though the bullet may have been termed, "hard cast" you have barrel leading.

The solution here is to have the throats opened up to a proper size, but it still brings us back to bullet to bore fit.

Apparently, you have a good fit as you indicate there are no leading problems.

As to the Hornady FTX - gummy nose/burger on the hoof bullets, Hornady had their head buried deeply in the sand in at least two areas here. #1, using non-standard length brass and #2 loading a bullet with a shortage of integrity. They are normally a better company then this bone head situation indicates. Yes the FTX bullet shoots well in many rifles and with a good hit will put game down. BUT!!!!!!! a poor hit means heavy meat loss which would not be seen with a better bullet.

I first started my 45/70 journey by hunting with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose cast bullet at velocities well over 2000fps and found this bullet at that velocity to also be very destructive.

Much better is a cast WFN bullet of over 400gr. at a velocity of 1400 - 1700fps.

Mine is a 465gr WFN, cast of 50/50 Wheel Weights/lead ( this would not be termed "hard cast" ) at a velocity of 1650fps. AWESOME on deer and ELK!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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I believe gas checks are for when you are driving the hard cast really fast.

HA
 

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According to Veral Smith of Lead Bullet Technologies (LBT) gas checks do at times solve some accuracy issues in some firearms.

I use them in a number of calibers and just recently ordered two new molds from Accurate Molds, one in 30 caliber and the other for a .444 with both cut for gas checks.

Years back, my oldest son and I were both shooting RUGER Blackhawks in .44 mag. Plain base bullets tended to cause some leading in Jeff's handgun, while I could shoot the same load with the same plain base bullet with no problems. A switch to a gas check design solved his leading issue.

If I had known those 30 or so years back of the importance of bullet to bore fit, the solution to Jeff's leading issues may have been as close as proper bullet to bore fit. However, we went with the gas check and the problem remains solved to this day.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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I have had great luck with plain base bullets and unless i am trying to shoot them over 1900 fps i always try plain base first ,i have never shot a gas checked bullet in 45/70s but have in 30/30 and 35 rem a few in 357 mag always in 357 max and very few in 44 mag , just dont get it in your head you have to have a gas check 45/70s work great with plain base bullets .

I once fixed a leading problem in a 44 mag by going to a softer alloy who would of thought, just keep thing like that in mind. good luck
 

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In my Marlin GG and my 86 carbine 45-70, I shoot 420 grain gc cast bullets that are Lyman #2 hardness, I put 40 grains of IMR 4198 under them and get 1640 fps over the speed meter.
No leading at all, I push a dry rag down the tube to clean the barrel, it always comes up shiny. I think a gas check may strip off any leading as it travels on out the barrel.
I can get the RCBS 420 grainers to cloverleaf at 75 yds. I have tried many different powders in the 45-70 case, most leave unburned powder gremlins in the tube.
Both IMR 4198 and H4198 burn very clean and give very good velocities and accuracy.
The biggest problem I find with cast is to have them undersize of the bore, no cast will shoot good if it rolls out like a bowling ball down a gutter.
 
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