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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I posted this on graybeards and got a little bit of positive responses but was told this is the "marlin" site wth the most traffic so I thought I would post here as well.

I enjoy shooting steel silhouettes, the chickens, pigs, turkeys and rams out to 100 yards with plinker rifles such as the Model 60. I do not have any desire to shoot a marlin model 60 (one of the most successful .22's of all time with over 11,000,000 copies and counting :D ) against a target model Anshutz or such however. Using the larger pistol targets of 3/8ths scale instead of the smaller official small bore rifle targets of 1/5 scale makes the game definitely in reach of a box stock Model 60 (or 10/22, Rem 597 etc.)

There would be a category for open sights and a category for "normal" scopes 4X or maybe up to 3x9's(not target models that cost 5 to 10 times more than the gun!) I am looking to create a family friendly shooting sport that puts an emphasis on keeping costs down, and actively promotes the fun aspect, safe gun handling aspect, and family activities such as a Jr./Sr. team competition to get Dad and Mom (or Grandpa and Grandma, Uncle or Aunt, any interested adult) shooting together with their sons and daughters. This would create a nation wide community of shooters that get together and enjoy shooting guns that millions of us already own.

I need to know two things if you would be so kind as to respond.

1. Are you interested enough to want to know more?

2. Would you join an association that did this which would send out a news letter with match results from all over the country and had articles written about the type of guns you actually would be using with tips on keeping them working, tests on ammo etc.? The anticipated cost of membership is in the $20 range.

While you can join other associations for just a little more ($30 to $35) for the membership, the equipment to be competitive can set you back thousands. In this new association you most likely already own the equipment you need to compete at the top levels where your skill and not high dollar equipment determine your score. This would keep the cost of your first year down in cost to $100 or less including membership, instead of $1,000 or more.

There is nothing wrong with the current silhouette associations but they don't have much to offer the guys on a budget or those who simply enjoy simple equipment.

Let me know what you think, if I get enough positive responses I will proceed to get this up and running for the 2005 season.
 

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That sounds like a really fun shooting game, but I don't think that I would join a formal association to do it. What is the room needed for this game?
 

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Paper punching once in a while.. but Hunting mostly. I would not join an association to shoot.. But thats just me,,
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
HI Sarge

For the .22's it can be held on any 100 yard range, for cowboy guns it can be held on either 100 or 200 yard ranges with different size targets depending on the range used, and for the higher velocity lever guns and bolt actions it would need the 200 yard ranges.

On being part of an association, what happens is that you end up forming good friendships and meeting people from all over the country, sharing ideas and learning things about the sport and your equipment that you wouldn't otherwise. I ahve been a shooter for most of my life. Shooting small bore rifle as a youth and being in sanctioned matches, later just shooting on my own and hunting. For the last decade I got back into sanctioned shooting and found it causes me to be a much better shooter. Knowing someone is keeping score causes you to pay closer attention to each shot and that helps keep us focused.

From the positive responses it is becoming clear that many would give it a try if it was available locally and many like the low cost idea on the rifle equipment. This being the case and my personal experience with Silhouette I know that a lot of you that try it will be hooked on it and will like being around folks that think shooting is fun and not a radical right activity.

Getting a set of steel swingers of the animals is a great way to try it out for not too much cost. They last a very long time if you just use .22's. My 5 year old set looks almost new and has been pretty heavily used.

Thanks a bunch for responding :D Knowing what you guys like to do is important and sometime the established groups quit listening to the "average joe" and then can't figure out why he left! I'm listening and know that the average shooter is the backbone of any association regardless of how formal or informal it may be.

One thing that has come up is should it be kept to high velocity .22 ammo only? A sport does not remain too affordable if Eley 10x at $10+ a box becomes the ammo to beat. What do you thing on putting limits on ammo as well as the rifles? I know Remington, Federal, Wincester etc. sell tons of promotional high velocity .22's each year under the thunderbolt, or lighting etc. names.

Let me know what you think if you would and thanks in advance :!:
Sarge said:
That sounds like a really fun shooting game, but I don't think that I would join a formal association to do it. What is the room needed for this game?
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi Gunjunkie

Thanks for your frank answer :!: Steel animals don't taste very good and you have to cook em a long time :wink:

One thing Silhouette would do for you is to have you practicing on an animal shaped target and that does a lot for your actual hunting shooting. As you know animals don't come with nice black aiming spots surounded by light colored paper. Silhouettes do not either and that is one thing paper punchers first notice about the game, it is difficult to find a good aiming point, compared to when they were shooting nice round bullseyes. If they hang with it they get it figured out soon enough but it is tough compared to the bullseye type shooting.

I'll bet you a cold one if you try it out you find it makes you a better shot on the hunting field.

Whatever you decide thanks again for sharing your thoughts, I am listening :idea:
Gunjunkie said:
Paper punching once in a while.. but Hunting mostly. I would not join an association to shoot.. But thats just me,,
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'm not much of a joiner either. The club I go to will not let you shoot steel or any other target a bullet might ricochet off of. This does sound like a very fun game and I would shoot it given the chance,and time.
 

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Hi Akihmsa

Just reading and don't have enough knowledge to respond intelligently. The club I belong to to my knowledge doesn't allow steel targets, but I will know tomorrow as I am going to do some shooting. I will make one comment though. I do believe the ammo should be limited in someway since not everyone can afford the high priced stuff. I have found when you start shooting high dollar ammo, suddenly your desire to shoot another few boxes dimenishes rather rapidly. I think unless you happen to be a serious benchrest shooter once you go beyond Wolf MT or something similar, it becomes less fun.

Just my .02

DG
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the reply Smoke810 :D

Steel and .22 rim fires isn't a real problem for ricochets but I understand folks worring over bullets leaving a range if you are hemmed in by development. There are ways to deal with it such as putting a piece of 12 guage steel over the top of the targets about 3 to 4 feet over and angled down towards the berm. This of course costs some bucks so I won't go there yet unless your club is still concerned. FYI in the USA we have been shooting silhouette for over 30 years without any problems from the targets. Early on there were a few issues with people using rail road rail for stands with the rail upside down this does have the potential of bringing back lead or jackets. The solution is to face the rail with old grader blades or other flat steel.

Thanks for your vote on the ammo, I am leaning that way and I'm checking to see if there is any really high dollar high velocity ammo out there. If not that is an easy solution, no standard velocity allowed and it would keep the cost down.

Let me know about your range situation, there are several silhouette ranges in OK that I know of.
smoke810 said:
Hi Akihmsa

Just reading and don't have enough knowledge to respond intelligently. The club I belong to to my knowledge doesn't allow steel targets, but I will know tomorrow as I am going to do some shooting. I will make one comment though. I do believe the ammo should be limited in someway since not everyone can afford the high priced stuff. I have found when you start shooting high dollar ammo, suddenly your desire to shoot another few boxes dimenishes rather rapidly. I think unless you happen to be a serious benchrest shooter once you go beyond Wolf MT or something similar, it becomes less fun.

Just my .02

DG
 

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I do think you idea is good and I am sure many would like it, Its just not for me. LOL

and yep the steel animals talk while to cook, but get plenty of IRON in Diet. :D :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Good points on the Iron :!:

You mentioned paper punching on occasion. One thing I want to include is paper silhouettes in a National postal match for the shooters that have ranges that do not allow steel silhouette animals. The current silhouette associations do not recognize paper as "official" and I believe it should be allowed and recognized.

If you have to shoot paper, it is better if target at least looks like an animal if that is what you are practicing for.

Again thanks for your responses :D Don't be surprised if one day when you go to paper punch someone is next to you punching paper silhouettes for a postal match entry. Strike up a conversation and I bet you have a lot in common ;~)

One word of warning on Silhouette, you need to be careful cause it becomes ADDICTIVE :!: :!: LOL

Take care and have fun no matter what you shoot.
Gunjunkie said:
I do think you idea is good and I am sure many would like it, Its just not for me. LOL

and yep the steel animals talk while to cook, but get plenty of IRON in Diet. :D :D
 

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Not for me. I ain't a joiner and I don't do stuff with lots of rules. I shoot for fun, and the minute someone starts taking it seriously I'm gone.

"Somebody might use high dollar ammo, so we're gonna ban ALL standard velocity ammo." I'm already gone.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi Leftoverdj

Thanks for responding honestly :!:

On rules, if you don't lay things out well you end up with a fellow who builds a gun around the buttplate of a Marlin Model 60, shooting $10 to $12 a box olympic target ammo. When someone objects to his 1 inch thick target barreled creation with a $200 trigger systelm etc., he points to the marlin 60 butt plate and says hey it really is a Model 60. There are already shooting sports for this type of fellow, but currently none for someone who just wants to shoot his Marlin, Ruger, Remington etc. and not spend like a drunken sailor in order to get some advantage.

Basic rules are needed or you end up with somebody saying I make the rules up as I go and the #1 rule is "I always win, period". The idea of not having rules sounds pretty good right up to the time you are downrange changing a target and someone decides they can shoot at the target next to you without hitting you! We all have some rules to follow regardless.

Lately I have been reading about some schools where they don't keep score and everyone is declared a winner. Problem has been teh kids still keep score and know who can play and who can't. quote="Leftoverdj"]Not for me. I ain't a joiner and I don't do stuff with lots of rules. I shoot for fun, and the minute someone starts taking it seriously I'm gone.

Even though you would not be interested, in your opinion do you think some of the people you know that shoot .22 plinker rifles might be :?:

Thanks for your reply :D

"Somebody might use high dollar ammo, so we're gonna ban ALL standard velocity ammo." I'm already gone.[/quote]
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It sounds like a lot of fun to me. I particularly like the idea of a paper target postal match as well. I used to do a lot of silhouette practice with paper animals. They don't clink, but they're cheap and can be shot anywhere.

I used to shoot in a "fun" match (pop cans) at my range, but the tech race started there too. What was intended as a plinker match now sees a number of bull barrel Rugers. One of these days I've gotta talk to the guy who runs it and suggest a "no bull barrel" rule. Of course the bull barrel guys don't always win. I once beat one of the first fellers to bring one of the thick tubes with what was then a standard 10/22 carbine.

I've since rigged it out as a heavy sihouette rifle, but I could always borrow my wife's new Wally World special 10/22 rifle.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi Brian

Thanks for saying what you would like to see. For it to grow it must meet the needs of the potential membership. :!: :!:

Been busy getting things lined up and all. This is a bunch of work and we want to hit the road right the first time :D

On the paper punching matches would you be interested in the normal course with targets at 25 50 75 100 or would a course with all the targets at one distance say 50 yards with teh targets sized appropriately be more to your liking or should both be available?

one thing I liked as a youth was the NRA qualification courses. I went thru a bunch of them some are not offered like the carbine course and I like that patch. Anyway one thing I want to do with the paper postals is recognize the members when they make the next rank. In shooting we are all really only competing with ourselves and our last score so it is nice in my mind to recognize when we move up. Do you like this idea?
Fla Brian said:
It sounds like a lot of fun to me. I particularly like the idea of a paper target postal match as well. I used to do a lot of silhouette practice with paper animals. They don't clink, but they're cheap and can be shot anywhere.

I used to shoot in a "fun" match (pop cans) at my range, but the tech race started there too. What was intended as a plinker match now sees a number of bull barrel Rugers. One of these days I've gotta talk to the guy who runs it and suggest a "no bull barrel" rule. Of course the bull barrel guys don't always win. I once beat one of the first fellers to bring one of the thick tubes with what was then a standard 10/22 carbine.

I've since rigged it out as a heavy sihouette rifle, but I could always borrow my wife's new Wally World special 10/22 rifle.
 

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If there's a patch involved...I'm in! I prefer ribboned medals but a patch would be just fine. :wink:

I think the postal match would be fun and feel it would be a bit more easy to have at one distance such as 50 yds. This would allow more people to take part. I know of three people in my area that would be interested.

Good Day
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The 50-yard postal match idea sounds good to me also, but I have access to both the smallbore pistol and rifle standard target distances at my range. So either of these would be fine with me also. I like the idea of patches as well.

I feel we can operate with the same class structure as in regular silhouette competition. This would allow shooters to move up in rank as their skills increase within the plinking rifle equipment restrictions.

Just a suggestion, but might we also consider a scope magnification restriction as well? We could standardize on a particular magnification, say 9X, to level the playing field even more. The idea would be to make it even more a contest of skill over equipment, further reducing the ability of competitors to turn the thing into a tech race. This also falls in with the notion that we're involved in plinking equipment matches.

Any feedback?
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I absolutely want to see a scope magnification limited category. We are in the process of debating whether it should be 4x or up to 9x to include the popular 3x9's. The best way to kill the game before it ever got off the ground would be for 24x or the huge 36x super target scopes into a plinker game. Without regard to what you already own (this is a tough one to do I know :oops: ) what do you think would be the most popular for growing the game 4x or up to 9x?

On the class system we are also in agreement. I have some very good silhouetters trying the "new" game out with various plinkers to see what their scores are so that we can set the top break points for that. 4 classes in each category looks like what most match directors want to see, too many classes thins the competition too much with people "winning" at smaller matches by simply showing up.
For those of you reading this scratching your heads about what these two nuts are talking about let me give a simple example using an ABCD System

A shooters are classed that way by scores of say 35-40x40
B shooters are classed that by scores of 28-34x40
C shooters are classed that by scores of 16-27x40
D shooters are classed that by scores of 0-15x40

Unclassified shooters shoot in A class.

These break points are just for example and may or may not be what we use.

Patches are cool :D we are thinking of rockers as well to go with the main patches that have the class on them to show your level of achievement. That will again be open to discussion. What we want to do is provide a sport that you want to participate in, so let us know what you want in a sport. Be reasonable cause the more goodies you want the higher things tend to cost, and the goal is to make it as affordable as is practicable. Lets get America shooting!, and turn them into the best shooters they can be with what they have.



Fla Brian said:
The 50-yard postal match idea sounds good to me also, but I have access to both the smallbore pistol and rifle standard target distances at my range. So either of these would be fine with me also. I like the idea of patches as well.

I feel we can operate with the same class structure as in regular silhouette competition. This would allow shooters to move up in rank as their skills increase within the plinking rifle equipment restrictions.

Just a suggestion, but might we also consider a scope magnification restriction as well? We could standardize on a particular magnification, say 9X, to level the playing field even more. The idea would be to make it even more a contest of skill over equipment, further reducing the ability of competitors to turn the thing into a tech race. This also falls in with the notion that we're involved in plinking equipment matches.

Any feedback?
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Almost Forgot :lol:

The JR. Program format!!!!

for pre-teens they will shoot at the turkeys on the chicken line, and the Rams on the Pig Line, for a total of 20 targets instead of 40.

This gets them more hits from the start and 20 targets does not casue the fatigue that a 40 round course does. Of course they can move up to the regular game anytime they want to but they can stay with the short course if they want as well.

Any sport that fails to have a thriving Jr. Program is doomed to future failure. Look around at the shooting lines in many Shooting sports and it often looks like an AARP convention. Nothing wrong with the seasoned folks, but there isn't anything wrong with the youth either. They like to shoot if given the chance and they act responsible if that is what you expect them to do.
 

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sounds like fun

i have a 22, stevens visible loader,and she is fun ta' shoot! :D
lets do it!
 

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akihmsa said:
On being part of an association, what happens is that you end up forming good friendships and meeting people from all over the country, sharing ideas and learning things about the sport and your equipment that you wouldn't otherwise.
[/quote]

That phrase is not true for the gun club here, those guys are all up in everybody's business and they act like i don't know how to handle my own gun. When i'm finished shooting and go to put my weapon down iv'e got guys yelling and saying HEY, HEY IS YOUR GUN UNLOADED? and i'm like what a moron and it's not just one person i think it's rubbed off on a few of the jackasses. Also they are comming to me and telling me how to shoot my gun and i wouldn't mind if they were just giving me some tips but when their trying to tell me how to hold my gun and try to change my style of shooting that irritates me cause not everyone shoots with the same style others may have awkward styles but that's the most effective way to shoot for that individual so there is no right or wrong way of holding a gun it's just whatever suits the shooter and they are just plain dummies, THAT'S RIGHT BIG ISLAND GUN CLUB YOU GUYS ARE DUMB HAOLES!!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: ok i'm done venting now lol.
 
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