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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Any ideas what is going on with the renewal/rewriting of the Patriot Act? Have heard some scary things.
 

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IMO, this thing needs to die. I am not in favor of my rights being infringed upon by anyone. If the can abuse the least of us, they can abuse all of us.
 

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http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/commentary.asp?record_id=343
How Liberty Dies: The Patriot Reauthorization Act
by John W. Whitehead -- 6/13/2005

~snip!~
Since the passage of the Patriot Act six weeks after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, 378 local and county governments and seven state legislatures representing millions of Americans have passed resolutions or ordinances opposing aspects of the Patriot Act that they believe to be at odds with the United States Constitution. One City Council member from Arcata, Calif., described his town’s ordinance as “a nonviolent preemptive attack” on the federal government’s revision of the Bill of Rights. Yet our government continues to ignore these concerns and push through its own agenda.

At a massive 342 pages, the Patriot Act violates at least six of the ten original amendments known as the Bill of Rights—the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Amendments—and possibly the Thirteenth and Fourteenth as well.

The Patriot Act was rushed through Congress, even though the majority of our representatives admitted to not reading it, reassured perhaps by the inclusion of a five-year sunset provision. But that sun does not seem to be setting on this chilling piece of legislation. Instead, the Senate Intelligence Committee is not only working to make the Patriot Act permanent, but also to expand its reach.

Among some of the widely cited concerns about the Patriot Act are that it redefines terrorism so broadly that many non-terrorist political activities such as protest marches or demonstrations and civil disobedience can be considered a terrorist act; grants the FBI the right to come to your place of employment, demand your personal records and question your supervisors and fellow employees, all without notifying you; allows the government access to your medical records, school records and practically every personal record about you; allows the government to secretly demand to see records of books or magazines you’ve checked out in any public library and Internet sites you’ve visited (at least 545 libraries received such demands in the first year following passage of the Patriot Act); and most egregious of all, it allows the FBI to enter your home through the use of a special warrant, search your personal effects and confiscate your personal property without informing you that they have done so.
Yet despite the many objections to these disturbing provisions within the Patriot Act, the Senate Intelligence Committee has wholeheartedly embraced the Patriot Reauthorization Act (PAREA), which takes government intrusion into the lives of average Americans to a whole new level.

For example, one “administrative authority” provision within PAREA, which would allow the FBI to write and approve its own search orders, represents a direct assault on the Fourth Amendment’s prohibitions against unreasonable search and seizure. Yet if Congress acts to approve what critics have termed “carte blanche for a fishing expedition,” the FBI will be in a position to conduct warrantless searches on people without having to show any evidence that they may be involved in criminal activities. This provision would also lift one of the last restrictions on special warrants for the FBI—namely, that the information be related to international terrorism or foreign intelligence.
~snip!~
While it remains questionable whether the Patriot Act has really succeeded in protecting Americans against future acts of terrorism, these highly controversial additions to the Act will unquestionably succeed in gutting the Fourth Amendment. Of all the protections found in the Constitution, the Fourth Amendment stands as the final barrier between the privacy rights of Americans and the potential for government abuse of power. But if law enforcement officials can search your home and your records without having to go through a judge, then the concept of a man’s home being his castle will become as antiquated as the Model T.
~snip!~

Constitutional attorney and author John W. Whitehead is founder and president of The Rutherford Institute and author of the award-winning Grasping for the Wind. He can be contacted at [email protected].
____________________________________

America as a police state is become a reality even right before our unbelieving eyes. It's an awfully interesting time in history to be alive, in this country, and if I had money I would get a one way ticket out of here. SERIOUSLY. :shock:
 

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Ill conceived reactionary legislation that needs to be killed quickly. It goes against the very basic foundation this country is supposed to be laid upon. In order to secure ourselves we are changing the very nature of our society. If that is allowed to continue our foes have won by our own hands.

Ol Ben Franklin said it best.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Larry
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
“In order to secure ourselves we are changing the very nature of our society. If that is allowed to continue our foes have won by our own hands.”

That is about the long and short of it.

But what can we citizens do? From Free Trade to the Crime Bill to the Patriot Act to going into Iraq, our government doesn’t seem to do what our people want.
 

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They know they can get away with it because the sheep will keep voting for the same two parties. The ol song "Voteing for anyone else is wasting your vote." is a self fufilling proficy. Only when a third liberty minded party starts getting some substantial vote numbers will the parties that be take notice.

Larry
 

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People have to be brave enough to step out from the two-party system together. But remember in the Bush-Kerry election the media wouldn't even talk about third party candidates, and Michael Badnarik got arrested for trying to enter the building when Bush and Kerry were having debates --- no third party candidates allowed for that!

If people only get away from their boob-tubes and mainstream papers for their information things can change in that regard. If people do it in large enough numbers -- it's hard to look and see what's outside the box when you believe you will be all alone in doing so and that it wouldn't do any good anyway.

But, my purpose in coming back to this topic this evening: I found a teeny-tiny bit of good news!

House Votes to Limit Patriot Act Rules
In a slap at President Bush, lawmakers voted Wednesday to block the Justice Department and the FBI from using the Patriot Act to peek at library records and bookstore sales slips.

The House voted 238-187 despite a veto threat from Bush to block the part of the anti-terrorism law that allows the government to investigate the reading habits of terror suspects.

The vote reversed a narrow loss last year by lawmakers concerned about the potential invasion of privacy of innocent library users. They narrowed the proposal this year to permit the government to continue to seek out records of Internet use at libraries.
______________________________

That was just a snippet of the article. Public pressure on our political leaders no doubt got them doing a double-take on the horrendous mistake they made in passing the original Patriot Act --- without reading it.

We gotta continue to speak up. Don't think it won't make a difference.

. . . reminding MYSELF, here!
 

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larry said:
They know they can get away with it because the sheep will keep voting for the same two parties. The ol song "Voteing for anyone else is wasting your vote." is a self fufilling proficy. Only when a third liberty minded party starts getting some substantial vote numbers will the parties that be take notice.

Larry
Unless the third party builds it's power base at the local level, then the state level, thus building it's national credibility, all a third party can do is disrupt elections, like Ross Perot did ... Did you enjoy Clinton?

Bill
 

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No I did not enjoy clinton and a lot is said in your post. NO! a third party can't suddenly spring on the national front and make a difference. People are too into the two party rut for that. I have no illusions of the slow loss of liberty we are undergoing being reversed.

The US was a grand experiment in freedom. It still is the most free country in the world but these freedoms have been diminishing even before my birth and continue to do so. This has nothing to do with current administration or parties except they continue the trend as those before them.

"For our own good" is the reasoning those who would limit freedom always use. My personal outlook is given the choice between freedom and danger vs more control and a more safety I will take more freedom and danger. That is how I am wired and always will be. I have no party allegiances. Lodi "Four" free and our rights preserved/Lodi "Four" at bay and our rights eroded in the least (More freedom, more danger vs less freedom less danger) ..................................I'll take the preserved rights. That's just my nature.

I also have no illusions as to change. The general herd and most here have no problem with the status quo. I'm only one person and my views are way off what the normal person thinks in most situations. That's why I rarely discuss politics and am done with this subject. I won't convince anyone and nobody will change my views though many have tried.

Again I refer:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."............Ben Franklin

"In order to secure ourselves we are changing the very nature of our society. If that is allowed to continue our foes have won by our own hands." .......Me from above.


FREEDOM at ALL costs.

Larry
 

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larry said:
I have no illusions of the slow loss of liberty we are undergoing being reversed.
Is that realistic or fatalistic? I feel the same way but there is so much going on about this on the internet that I think (MAYBE!) part of the ILLUSION is that most people are just cows in a cattlecart going off to slaughter, with no clue as to where they're headed. Maybe that's not true and that most of us know what's going on and don't plan to go along with it.
larry said:
The US was a grand experiment in freedom.
We were warned --- by our leaders themselves, --- that we weren't going to be able to keep what we have (had?) without vigilence and a fight, but we let them take over our educational system and therefore our minds. it's aggravating to see HOW it was done, and to think if we were that apathetic in taking our country for granted then we deserve exactly what we're going to get.
larry said:
I also have no illusions as to change. The general herd and most here have no problem with the status quo. I'm only one person and my views are way off what the normal person thinks in most situations.
I think people who have no problem with the "status quo" maybe just haven't been exposed to the information that would make them take a second look. There was a terrific uprising about the Patriot Act in cities all across the country, which tells me more of the mainstream people GET what's going on than don't.

The television won't tell you that though, it belongs to Big Brother. Look at the Nat'l Republican Convention --- did anybody get to see on TV how huge the crowd that was there protesting?

I don't know. It isn't over til it's over. I'd rather be a chicken-$**t and live in another country and watch it all from there, however, there aren't many places to run anymore that aren't under the global plan already.

Ah, lovely topic to start the day with . . . and now to think about going off to work. (And to remember to be grateful that I have a job to go to, eh?)
 

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Our fearless leader said he'd veto the House's version that want to put a limit on certain area's of the Patriot Act's poweres. I say impeach them all. Just remember, when all else fails, vote from the rooftops.
 

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larry said:
No I did not enjoy clinton and a lot is said in your post. NO! a third party can't suddenly spring on the national front and make a difference. People are too into the two party rut for that. I have no illusions of the slow loss of liberty we are undergoing being reversed.
Things could be reversed however, the slow erosion of our freedoms, isn't so slow anymore.

Two features of the Patriot Act II were just turned down in the senate. One was the FBI's ability to look at what people were reading in libraries.

I couldn't understand how knowing what people were reading could help the FBI anyway. If you could conclude a person is a terrorist, from what they read, then I must be a terrorist ...

Is it just what we read, that makes us a terrorist?

larry said:
The US was a grand experiment in freedom. It still is the most free country in the world but these freedoms have been diminishing even before my birth and continue to do so. This has nothing to do with current administration or parties except they continue the trend as those before them.
The US is still the grand experiment in freedom. Now, the only thing is we are experimenting with giving up freedoms for a tenous government controlled security.

larry said:
"For our own good" is the reasoning those who would limit freedom always use. My personal outlook is given the choice between freedom and danger vs more control and a more safety I will take more freedom and danger. That is how I am wired and always will be. I have no party allegiances.
Larry like you, I will take the freedom and the danger. I dislike people that will do something, for the good of the people, as they see it.

larry said:
Lodi "Four" free and our rights preserved/Lodi "Four" at bay and our rights eroded in the least (More freedom, more danger vs less freedom less danger) ..................................I'll take the preserved rights. That's just my nature.
I don't think the Lodi four were even revealed by the new government powers given to them by the patriot act.

If it were up to me, I too, would rather have the Lodi Four loose, and able to continue their acts, what ever it was they were going to do. Then I could be a little more incontrol of my destiny.

More terrorist strikes, in this country would either bring about the greatest repression to individual rights, or return us to pre 1900 individual rights. I would like to gamble on the it.

If there were more organized militia activity, legal activity that is, the government might pay more attention to what we are saying. Organized, on going militia activity, might get out politicians to listen to us.

However, from what I have read on militia web-sites I wouldn't want to be associated with any of them. The majority of the posts I have read, are from people are about 99% nutcases.

larry said:
I also have no illusions as to change. The general herd and most here have no problem with the status quo. I'm only one person and my views are way off what the normal person thinks in most situations. That's why I rarely discuss politics and am done with this subject. I won't convince anyone and nobody will change my views though many have tried.
You views are not so far from my on. I came from a family of pioneers that lived on the cutting edge of the frontier since they came to America in 1630.

My grandfather, born in 1850, was in Montana, in 1866, at sixteen years of age.

larry said:
Again I refer:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."............Ben Franklin

"In order to secure ourselves we are changing the very nature of our society. If that is allowed to continue our foes have won by our own hands." .......Me from above.


FREEDOM at ALL costs.

Larry
I agree with you, we must have our freedom, have it at what ever the cost.

But, then all of the Socialist-Liberals would have be shipped to some other country.

Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
“Without the Patriot Act the Lodi "Four" would not have been jailed”

False, they flew under the Act’s radar just fine. It was real Moslems in the Lodi community tipped the FBI wise to their goings on. After that, the Act may have added some frosting; but it was good, God fearing, red blooded, American Moslems supplied the cake.
Please don’t call Bin Laden a Moslem. He is not. With every breath he defiles the Koran.
At one time or another, America has been the one place where one could truly be a Christian, or a Jew, by their own conscience. Today, it is the one place where one can truly be a Moslem, without the bovine excrement so many other places attach. Without politics, just them and God; one on one. Many of our most fanatic patriots reside within our Moslem communities.

Unlawful search and seizure is OK, but nix to library records? What’s wrong with that picture? Our library won’t let me see what I’ve checked out! Read a lot and occasionally want to trace something I read a few years ago. Was hoping Homeland Security could help me out.

30 years ago the Libertarians were well organized. Now they are flotsam. Can’t take the Greens seriously, until they take themselves seriously. We don’t vote for anyone; we vote against the other main party guy. Was hoping the Libertarian-Green debate would be good for the national dialog and both those parties, kind of bring them into reality instead of talking to the choir. But I still haven’t been able to get a transcript (I’ve got this security thing, doesn’t just download anything, and hope). Don’t see no viable third party on the horizon.

Stillwater,
As I recall, contrary to what the talking heads said, Clinton’s numbers were better against our beloved President’s father’s numbers in a two man race, than when Mr. Peroit was involved. Peroit’s party was all imagination (what party isn’t to some extent?) and that has vanished. We need real 3rd and 4th parties; because neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are cutting it.

Anyone think that, if it hadn’t been for the diminishing of our rights, in light of the first hijacking to Cuba, that the terrorists would have got control of even one plane; could the citizens have been armed? The “security” has made us more vulnerable.

Note of hope, courtesy of Harry Chapin:

She has no fear of failure
She’s not vexed by broken dreams
For the future’s just beginning
When you’re always
Seventeen.

Every time I hear this, I see the Statue of Liberty; and I know: that the dream will go on.
 

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silvertip said:
<snip>

Stillwater,
As I recall, contrary to what the talking heads said, Clinton’s numbers were better against our beloved President’s father’s numbers in a two man race, than when Mr. Peroit was involved. Peroit’s party was all imagination (what party isn’t to some extent?) and that has vanished. We need real 3rd and 4th parties; because neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are cutting it.
<snip>
I don't remember the preelection figures on the first Clinton election, but, I do know he only garnered 41% of the vote. That makes him a minority vote president.

Anytime there is a three way race, for the presidency, there needs to be a run off election, between the two top vote getters. Expensive, but necessary.

Bill
 

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The place to start is support for Ron Paul and our total withdrawl from the UN... Then we can start replacing the people in our Nation with ones that Believe we have a Constitution and don't try to change it for their own personal gain and profit..
 

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Gunjunkie said:
The place to start is support for Ron Paul and our total withdrawl from the UN... Then we can start replacing the people in our Nation with ones that Believe we have a Constitution and don't try to change it for their own personal gain and profit..
I have haven't heard Ron Paul's name mentioned in the media. Internet forums are the only place where I have anything, at all, about Ron Paul. Paul must not have much traction if he isn't considered newsworthy by the media.

I know, I know, people are going to say that the media is ignoring him. I don't think so -- the media outlets are such whores, that they will write about anybody. So, if they don't like him, why are they not saying that?

We need to do more than a total withdrawl from the UN. We need the UN out of America, entirely. Tear down the damned UN building and make a parking lot out of it ...

The first thing Bush can do, to get the UN's attention is too stop paying dues to the UN. Besides that, the US pays higher dues than any other country. That needs to be leveled, if nothing else. Reagan stopped paying dues to the UN, and he got their attention right away.

Bill
 

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SquirrelSniper said:
Ron Paul is the man. Zell Miller is quite possibly the best Democrat that ever lived in the later half of the 20th century.
Since Zell Miller has jumped ship, with the Democratic Party and since I heard his speech at the Republican Party convention, Miller might be a viable candidate for 2008.

I will admit to liking Miller more than anybody else in the Republican Party.

Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I agree that the UN is dangerous. I disagree that we should get out of it. We have a seat on the Security Council. We can obstruct the bejeebees out of it! Look at all the obstruction of our goals others have caused from there. No better place to keep it from going further than where we are right now.
Veto taxes, veto world government. Instead of paying them dues, we should be charging them money!
If we get out, world government will proceed unabated under the “leadership” of China, Russia and France. I’d rather we stay in and foil these villains.

Anyone noticed that China has cut a deal with Iran, guaranteeing their nuclear weapons development and all the consumer goods and technology they want? Anyone notice that China has cut a deal with Fidel Castro, supplying him with capital and consumer goods to distribute to kill Cuba’s moves to a freer economy and to start oil exploration off of Cuba’s west coast in the Gulf?

But more importantly, what to do regarding the renewal of the Patriot Act in America this year?
 
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