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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Probably a stupid question, but after searching for some starting loads for their 405 LC bullets and IMR 3031 I've seen what I think are reprints ranging from 34-45 grains. I know there are three distinct power levels but I haven't seen any reference in these "reprints". I'm a .45-70 newbie but a long time reloader and that sort of starting load disparity makes me nervous.

Can anyone who owns the OTLC manual tell me if they include all three power levels before I make my purchase?

TIA, Will
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
The reason I ask is most of my searches start at 34 grains which I think is a trapdoor load. I just want to be sure this manual covers more than trapdoor and Cowboy loads?
I'm also curious if they have loads for the 458 WM?

Thanks, Will
 

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Lyman's 48th lists trapdoor 45-70 loads with a 405RNFP and IMR3031 at 34.0 to 38.5gr. The starting load you refer to is definitely the bottom range of trap door levels. The top load would appear to overlap into the Marlin 1895 range. I can't offer the Marlin level for that load from Lyman's 48th because they don't list IMR3031 for a cast bullet larger than 330gr.

For comparison, Hodgdon's own data for lever actions for 400gr jacketed and IMR3031 ranges from 51.0 to 55.0gr (compressed) loadings. They don't list heavier cast bullets on their 45-70 page. It would seem the data you reference is the lower end trapdoor loads thru lower end Marlin 1895 loads. The only thing I don't know is if Oregon Trail's bullets are of an alloy that supports higher speeds and/or if they are gas checked. Their listed loads likely reflect the speeds they recommend for their bullets.

Hope this helps, at least a little.
 

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Oregon Trail starts the 405 gr bullet at 34 gr. 3031 for the marlin rifle, 38.5 max.

This has been one of the most disapointing manuals I ever purchased, nearly worthless unless you are into milque toast loads and few powder choices.

Even better yet they list the ruger #1 starting loads at 34 gr and max at 37gr . My mistake, the test gun was a ruger #3, the loads are for a reproduction Springfield.

Save your money
, and buy a real loading manual.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
minute-of-berm thanks for your response!
I have all the major reloading manuals but few offer much in the way of cast bullets for rifles.
I bought my 1895 to shoot cast bullets. Do you have a suggestion on a suitable manual?

Thanks, Will
 

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Lyman offers a manual specifically for cast bullets. A new edition was just published in the last year or so. I don't have one but I'm sure you can locate one online pretty quickly.
 
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I have a Lyman 48th, and as mentioned above Lyman has their new 4th edition Cast Bullet Handbook out, available in many places. I don't own the new 4th, but wouldn't hesitate to buy one.

I also have a bunch of Ranch Dog load data downloaded and have been happy starting 10 percent under the published charges. I have been shooting the OT 350gr RNFP over 50gr of 3031, some leading, but nothing severe.

That's about all I got off hand, except this, I don't pay much to conventional speeds with cast bullets, I let my barrel tell me how fast to run them.
 

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If you are looking for ultra low speed loads this website is pretty useful. Lever Gun Performance Studies

Anymore I don't use any load data but that except for specific hunting loads for my wife's 1894C and my 30-30 and 45 Colt rifles. Otherwise it is low and slow. Saves on the unobtanium powders like Red Dot and Unique that way.
 

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Hey there WD852 -- And then there are those of us that find the Oregon trail manual very helpful for a wide range of lead spittin' hyphenated calibers. They have no Ruger loads, period. Their focus was on loads for a lot of the hyphenated calibers, as well as PPC, and IPSC. They have a wealth of secondary information besides just the load data. It is a good resource to loads that work well with their bullets. Here are what the 45-70 pages look like...

View attachment 115530 View attachment 115531

Another excellent source for load data using Oregon Trail bullets may be found at www.gmdr.com Click the Oregon Trail box at the top of the page, and then your caliber and bullet weight.

Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind
 

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@ Wind. You're correct, the "test gun" was a ruger # 3, my mistake. First one today.
Actually was your second mistake, the first being getting out of bed this AM. :tee:
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks Wind. I went ahead and ordered the Lyman.

-Will-
 

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:)Well, some of us just don't have the luxury of hanging out in moms basement till the clocks strikes noon.:congrats:


At 72 years young that would be a bit of a problem since my mother has been gone for many years, but staying in bed till noon is an option after staying on this forum till the AM hours.:tee:
 

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Lyman offers a manual specifically for cast bullets. A new edition was just published in the last year or so. I don't have one but I'm sure you can locate one online pretty quickly.
+1, I ordered my Lyman cast bullet manual through Amazon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I just received the 4th Edition Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and I have the Lyman 49th Edition Reloading Handbook on the way to replace the 46th Edition I had on my shelf. That should cover Lyman's input.
I also received three pdf files from Oregon Trail.

I hope I didn't ruffle the feathers of any Trapdoor or Cowboy shooters with my hasty reply {QUOTE}The reason I ask is most of my searches start at 34 grains which I think is a trapdoor load. I just want to be sure this manual covers more than trapdoor and Cowboy loads?{/QUOTE}I was just looking for a bit more oomph!

I'm a newbie to the .45-70 cartridge, but I knew something was wrong with the two responses to my request for a starting load for IMR 3031. I don't expect a free lunch and I don't rely on the internet for reloading data, but I was anxious to shoot my new rifle. Here are the responses to my request to starting loads:

.45-70 Government - Marlin 1895 Lever Actions (Oregon Trail Rifle Data) Reloading Data
Warning! Notes: test gun: Marlin 1895 24", WLR; OAL: 2.530; never reduce stated overall lengths; these loads are safe for Marlin 1895
lever action and other modern rifles; do not use in any "trapdoor" 1873 Springfield; do not exceed maximum loads
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)

405 Flat Point IMR IMR-3031 34.0 1,200
Remarks: starting load

405 Flat Point IMR IMR-3031 38.5 1,375
Remarks: maximum load


and:

405 gr. Cast load data.png

I thought the second was an accurate reprint of the Oregon Trail manual and therein lies my mistake!

This is a very helpful and enjoyable forum thanks for everyone's help. -Will-
 

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Will,

I have shared your frustration as to finding load data for the 45/70 and am just 5 or 6 years ahead of you at this point.

You say your a long time handloader, and having started handloading in the late 60 or very early 70s I know just what your facing.

For years I chose a set of components for a given firearm and began to work up from at or about the minimum listed loads towards the maximum listed loads.

Well as you have already found out, the 45/70 is a totally different cat.

First, forget warp speeds!!!!!!!! IF using a good Wide Flat Nose cast bullet of over 400gr, a velocity on the range of 1600 - 1700fps will simply get er done in extremely fine fashion! Awesome what a 465gr WFN will do on deer and elk at 1650fps.

Another problem we face is the WIDE range of bullet weights and the fact as you have found, that they may or may not be listed in a loading manual.

Just know that any load listed for a Trapdoor will shoot just fine and be safe in a Marlin or RUGER #1. AND if using trapdoor info to start with, the use of a cast bullet a bit heavier then listed will not get you in trouble in a Marlin or Ruger.

The point being that a load in the mid range of the "mild to wild" is going to be very effective on game, and especially so if a good WFN cast bullet of over 400gr is employed.

And yes, I first did follow the years long pattern of working up towards maximum, testing 355gr WFN cast loads as high as 2500fps and hunting my first year with that bullet at just over 2300fps.

WAY over kill, leaving a huge wound channel, something I had NEVER expected for what is basically a non-expanding bullet. Way too much of a bad thing.

Thankfully I rec'd some good council on one of the forums and have found the 465gr WFN at 1650fps to be ever so much better then the lighter and faster load.

Shot over 20 rounds of those loads off the bench yesterday, make it a practice to use a sissy bag, and it is a thumper, but way less recoil then the 355gr at 2300 - 2500fps.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks CDOC you are correct the 45/70 is a totally different cat. I have loading gear from .223 to .458WM and my case holders barely work if at all, my trimmer is at it's limits, and the loading data seems much more cryptic. It's been one step forward and two steps back sorting this all out :shot:. I think I'm getting it figured out? I'll be looking for some hogs this weekend so we'll see. Thanks again.

-Will-
 
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