[wayneo73]

hello, i'm new to the world of reloading and have found the entire MO sight extreemly helpful... not only in reloading info but general info as well. that being said, i don't want to clog up the other forums with "remedial" questions.

i found a post talking about case capicity.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,28447.0.html

i don't understand what the case capacity has to do with the loading under the loading guidelines??

for example i'm reloading 2 identical rounds using:

49 grains of imr 4198 (50 grains is the max load listed from the IMR website)
hornady 350 grain bullets
cci 200 large rifle primers


everything for loading 2 rounds is equal except for different cases being used. say one winchester and one remington. according to the above post/link, the win brass has 4.1 grains more capacity than rem brass. won't these load up exactly the same? won't there just be more empty space in the case for the brass with more capacity?

granted the load data i'm using specifies win brass. does the load data change if i'm using different brass? is this only relevant if when i get close to case capacity... ie. different bullet, or powder?

please help, because some of the warnings will scare the snot out of you. i don't want to go to the range with unanswered questions... second guessing all of my work/research/studying/question asking.

thanks in advance -wayne ???

 

[swany]

Say your using the Rem that has 4.1 gns less than the Winchester case, but your loading data is for the Win case and you are nearing maximum.


The problem then becomes compounded using the smaller capacity case your pressure is higher than the data you are using. So say your top data load is 54 gns for the Win case and you get to 54 gns using the Rem case you are seating the bullet compressing the powder and then the pressure spikes as you may well be 4.1 gns over maximum loading data. This could cause serious injury though most often it will show as things like a primer cup blowing out, sticky extraction.

Bottom line think of it this way you have a case with a certain capacity of loose powder, you fill the case full leaving no room for a bullet but seat the bullet and it compresses more powder than ever intended to be in the case causing an overload. Every gn of powder gives you more pressure and if you use a small capacity case it gives more pressure yet.

Use your data but if you are using the smaller capacity case reduce the starting charge by that amount, the pressure will be higher but you will be safer and still get the same velocities with less powder.

 

[wayneo73]

thanks swany.

so smaller capacity case = higher pressure with everything else being equal?

 

[wayneo73]

Use your data but if you are using the smaller capacity case reduce the starting charge by that amount, the pressure will be higher but you will be safer and still get the same velocities with less powder.

i missed this part... so i can save on some powder by using the rem brass and achieving the same velocity? i'm asking to get a better understanding... not to save a few grains of powder here and there.

 

[Crusty Deary Ol Coot]

WayneO73,

The following is not about loading the 45/70 specificily, but I think you will see the point and the possible problems with different cases.

A number of years back, I was developing loads for a son's 30/06 using Remington brass.

The range were were using in Lewiston, Idaho - home of Speer, CCI, Bitterroot bullets - was about 45 minutes drive from Pullman, Washington where we lived, so I needed to run as many tests as possible to make the trip worth while.

Using my normal loading method for load development of working up by 1 grain and then 1/2grain as I approach the published max, I ran out of the lot of Rem. brass I was using before the series of test loads was all loaded. I think I was about 5 cases short.

So, I went to my odds and ends brass box and selected Remington 30/06 brass, making sure all the head stamps match as to type/style.

I used 2 or 3 of these "odd" cases in each of the last sets of 5 shot test loads.

Testing went along fine, until the next to the last set, which as I recall had a couple of fliers and possibly slight signs of increasing pressures.

Befoe these "odd" cases were loaded, they were trimmed to "trim" length.

Firing the last group, there were additional fliers, but this time one of those cases had a primer that looked like it had been rivited into the primer pocket after firiing, the case head showed where the brass had flowed into the ejector hole in the bolt face and when measured, the case had streached BEYOND!!!!! the "needs to be trimmed" length in one firing.

The point here is, do not use mixed lots/brands of brass for ANY load approaching max. published loads.

Always keep your brass sorted as to number of times fired as well as by brand and lot number.

Mixed brands or lots of brass, just like changing lots of powder just might mess up your day, face, rifle and goodness only know what else.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

[Pard]

Swany covered your question. I have a few comments...

First, unless you use EXACTLY the items on the IMR/HODGEN website, dont use their dope.
Get the load for the bullet you are using. There has been problems substituting bullets/primers/cases.


A consideration unique to the 45-70 (and a few other older calibers). Those old cases were designed to be filled with black powder.

You will get a more constant FPS & pressure fill your case with something. I use a veggie wad (becuase I have them for loading black powder) and pillow stuffing (dacron).
This way the powder stays next to the primer, and you get an even burn. If not the powder lays on the side of the case, and you get an uneven burn.

 

[wayneo73]

First, unless you use EXACTLY the items on the IMR/HODGEN website, dont use their dope.
Get the load for the bullet you are using. There has been problems substituting bullets/primers/cases.

thanks. i emailed my first loads to a guy i know who i trust about reloading. i started a minimum levels and went up 1gr at a time and stopped at least 1 gr before max. i sent him the screenshot from the imr website and he thought my loads were over max??? he quoted a few other reloading manuals and they indicated i was over max at my minimum charge??

is this site no good for working up loads?? http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

 

[wayneo73]

You will get a more constant FPS & pressure fill your case with something. I use a veggie wad (becuase I have them for loading black powder) and pillow stuffing (dacron).
This way the powder stays next to the primer, and you get an even burn. If not the powder lays on the side of the case, and you get an uneven burn.

thanks for this also. i noticed with some of my lighter loads that i could hear the powder squishing (technical term) around in the case after loaded.

man this is alot of info to absorb!

thanks everyone for all of your feedback!

 

[Ridgerunner665]

If it were me...I'd back that load down to at least 46 grains when using Remington brass.

Hodgdens load data is good...but when you start changing things around (brass) it goes downhill fast...Hodgden used Winchester brass for their data.

I messed around with Hodgdens load data using Remington brass too...with 405 grain bullets and H322...DO NOT USE 55 grains of H322 under a 405 in Remington brass...I'm assuming that 50 grains under a 350 in Rem brass is about the same thing (only worse...4198 is a much faster powder), its too much!

Using Hodgdens data with Remington brass...lower the charge by 4 grains and you should be OK.

 

[wayneo73]

If it were me...I'd back that load down to at least 46 grains when using Remington brass.

Hodgdens load data is good...but when you start changing things around (brass) it goes downhill fast...Hodgden used Winchester brass for their data.

I messed around with Hodgdens load data using Remington brass too...with 405 grain bullets and H322...DO NOT USE 55 grains of H322 under a 405 in Remington brass...I'm assuming that 50 grains under a 350 in Rem brass is about the same thing (only worse...4198 is a much faster powder), its too much!

Using Hodgdens data with Remington brass...lower the charge by 4 grains and you should be OK.

is the IMR/Hodgden website data good is you're using winchester brass. so far i've created 3, 3 round loads using IMR 3031 and 3, 3 round loads using IMR 4198. i started at the minimum listed on the IMR/Hodgden website and went up 1 grain each time. i stayed below the minimum. and i used the same brass and primer listed in the IMR/Hodgden data.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

is the IMR/Hodgden website data good is you're using winchester brass. so far i've created 3, 3 round loads using IMR 3031 and 3, 3 round loads using IMR 4198. i started at the minimum listed on the IMR/Hodgden website and went up 1 grain each time. i stayed below the minimum. and i used the same brass and primer listed in the IMR/Hodgden data.

As long as you are using the same brass...I'd say yes, the data is good...but the max loads are quite warm so be careful and go slow.

 

[Crusty Deary Ol Coot]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa ---- yes,

Go back and reread my post about the Remington brass and the 30/06.

Just because you are using the brass, as listed by the publisher of the loading data, does NOT mean you are good to go.

THERE ARE LOT TO LOT differences in brass as well as manufacture to manufacture differences.

Now, considering the external sizes of brass for a given cartridge, should be very close from one lot/brand to another, you come to case wall/head thickness which was the problem in the 30/06 situation.

You can sort this out by using a good scales, but beware of the lot to lot case differences EVEN within one manufactures offerings.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

 

[Pard]

I got a box of Hornady 300s, I used 45grs of RL-7, and it worked ok. I now use 45 grs of RL-7 with Speer 400PP, and they are very stout, compared to cast.

On Remy cases for an 30-06, I had to get rid of the ones I had. The primer pockets seem to get loose rather quickly 8)

I went back to using Lake City cases

 

[Crusty Deary Ol Coot]

Hello Pard,

I have not been much of a Remington brass fan, but the point I was trying to make is not about Remington, but rather about the differences between lots of brass from the same manufacture and/or from one brand to another.

Snowy here in Ideeeeeehy!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot