A friend was selling his guide gun that he has put less than 2 boxes of ammo through it. He let me barrow it. With my hand loads for my Contender I put 8 rounds in about 3" at 50 yds(open sights) group would have been smaller-2 rounds were out side of the cloverleaf I was makin. So I paid him the $400.00 he was asking and he through in the factory ammo he had with it. 41/2 boxes of Federal 300 grn hp, a box of Rem 300 grn hp and 3/4 of a box of rem 405 grn. I figure the cost of ammo I really paid less than 300.00 for the guide gun. Great thing this is my 3hird 45-70. My first came when I was 18 and bought a 1884 Trapdoor cadet model that someone cut the forearm of the stock down, Then I got a contender carbine- 23" barrel in 45-70 and now a guide gun. I took my deer last year using the Contender with ranch dog 350 bullet backed by 28.5 grns of 5744. Might have to carry the guide gun for elk this year and leave the 35 whelen at home. I will take a fall bear with the guide gun.