[Mark with 1894 .357]

I've owned a Model 1894 carbine (brass trigger) in .38/.357 for several years. It used to be a reasonably accurate rifle, but lately not so much.
I decided to put a scope on it since open sight accuracy deteriorated. I thought it was my eyesight.
All sight in shots were fired off a bagged rest with little or no wind, temps ranging through the mid 90s.
I mounted a Vortex 1x4x24 scope on it with conventional rings and base. I started sighting it in at 50 yards using 158gr JSP ammo. The best group I got was around 6". I blamed it on the ammo.
In the mean time I contacted Vortex, and they assured me that the scope could easily handle the sharp recoil of the .357 magnum loads.
I recently tried to sight it in at 75 yards, and I would be lucky to hit the broad side of a bear. This time I used PMC 158gr. JSP ammo. I was lucky to get a 12" group. I shifted to one of my old reloads. It's a 158gr. Hornady XTP FP with 11 grains of Blue Dot behind it. Accuracy improved to a 3 shot 8 inch group. In both cases hits were all over the area with no two grouping close.
This rifle has the micro-groove rifling. Is it possible that the rifling is totally fouled? I've cleaned it in the usual fashion using Hopes #9 with brushes and patches.
Any help would be appreciated. If I can't get some kind of accuracy out of it, the rifle may soon belong to someone else.

 

[ditto1958]

You say it used to be more accurate. Has anything changed? Rifles don’t just wear out like that. At least not 38/357 rifles. Have you inspected the muzzle? Damage there could cause the rifle to be inaccurate. Have you tried different ammo? Or having someone else shoot it?

 

[Mark with 1894 .357]

I've done a quick check of the muzzle for burrs and dings, but I'll take a closer look. As for different ammo, I tried 3 different loads (2 different factory rounds and 1 reload).
My question is if I need to do a deeper cleaning than just a few brush and patch runs like you's do with conventional rifling? Is a micro-groove rifling more prone to copper or lead fouling than lands and grooves? Do I need to soak overnight with a copper solvent? Do I need to try using a cathodic bore cleaning system?

 

[Oakscool]

I would check scope mounts and for tight screws.
More likely than the rifle suddenly going bad.

mounted a Vortex 1x4x24 scope on it with conventional rings and base. I started sighting it in at 50 yards using 158gr JSP ammo. The best group I got was around 6". I blamed it on the ammo.
In the mean time I contacted Vortex, and they assured me that the scope could easily handle the sharp recoil of the .357 magnum loads.

 

[NickMc]

+1 on bore cleaning. If it was accurate once, the average weekend warrior is not going to wear of that rifle. JB bore paste will remove that stubborn fouling that Hoppes #9 or other bore cleaner will not.

 

[Mark with 1894 .357]

I would check scope mounts and for tight screws.
More likely than the rifle suddenly going bad.

Solid torqued to spec. I'm thinking/hoping copper/lead fouling that needs more than just a bit of Hoppes #9, a brush and a patch.

 

[Mark with 1894 .357]

+1 on bore cleaning. If it was accurate once, the average weekend warrior is not going to wear of that rifle. JB bore paste will remove that stubborn fouling that Hoppes #9 or other bore cleaner will not.

Thanks for the recommendation. Not concerned about blowing the bore out. Concerned about a heavier fouling than a general cleaning can remove..

 

[DschSarg]

I've owned a Model 1894 carbine (brass trigger) in .38/.357 for several years. It used to be a reasonably accurate rifle, but lately not so much.
I decided to put a scope on it since open sight accuracy deteriorated. I thought it was my eyesight.
All sight in shots were fired off a bagged rest with little or no wind, temps ranging through the mid 90s.
I mounted a Vortex 1x4x24 scope on it with conventional rings and base. I started sighting it in at 50 yards using 158gr JSP ammo. The best group I got was around 6". I blamed it on the ammo.
In the mean time I contacted Vortex, and they assured me that the scope could easily handle the sharp recoil of the .357 magnum loads.
I recently tried to sight it in at 75 yards, and I would be lucky to hit the broad side of a bear. This time I used PMC 158gr. JSP ammo. I was lucky to get a 12" group. I shifted to one of my old reloads. It's a 158gr. Hornady XTP FP with 11 grains of Blue Dot behind it. Accuracy improved to a 3 shot 8 inch group. In both cases hits were all over the area with no two grouping close.
This rifle has the micro-groove rifling. Is it possible that the rifling is totally fouled? I've cleaned it in the usual fashion using Hopes #9 with brushes and patches.
Any help would be appreciated. If I can't get some kind of accuracy out of it, the rifle may soon belong to someone else.

Mine doesn't like 158 grain bullets. I load 180 Gn. Hornady XTP over 12 grains of 2400--seems to like them a lot better. I was very disappointed with mine until I found the 180s.

 

[steve-brook]

I suggest a good clean with lead and copper remover first.

 

[tranteruk]

I am with ditto1958, step one, get a trusted shot to try it, from rest at 50 yds. If they get the same groups, at least your in the clear.

 

[HiDesertHunter]

It used to be a reasonably accurate rifle, but lately not so much.

What do you mean by 'Used to be reasonably accurate' ?

My point is if say, you were previously getting 4" groups at 50 yards and now you are at 6", well your problem isn't just starting now as that rifle should be capable of 1.5" groups with good ammo benchrested.

Ditto on letting a known, good shot try it out properly benchrested after a good cleaning.

 

[ballistics04]

I recommend a good cleaning. Most (maybe all) copper solvents cannot be left in the barrel for longer than 15 minutes, so make sure you read the label. But I stopped using copper solvents more than 15 years ago. Here's why...

Back in my NRA High Power Rifle competition days I decided one day to use Sweet's copper solvent in my match grade AR-15 with a stainless barrel. I followed the directions on the bottle, and it removed a lot of copper. That was after removing all of the powder fouling with Hoppe's #9. So after two treatments with the Sweet's copper solvent, and not removing any more copper, I thought ALL of the copper was gone from my bore. So, I put a patch down the barrel, soaked with Hoppe's #9. I got sidetracked and didn't get back to cleaning my rifle until the next day. I pushed a dry patch through the bore with my one-piece Dewey cleaning rod, and the patch came out green with more copper! I couldn't believe it. I pushed another Hoppe's soaked patch down the barrel and left it for 12 hours. Came back with a dry patch and found more copper. I kept repeating this process with Hoppe's #9 and removed copper fouling for more than a week, just using Hoppe's #9. That's when I gave up on copper solvents.

Copper solvents can be harmful to the bore if used improperly. Hoppe's #9 is safe in your bore for extended times, so it's my go-to bore cleaner. I still use Break Free/CLP for lubricating and rust prevention.

 

[ditto1958]

More rifles are likely ruined by over jealous cleaning than by not cleaning enough. I have a very accurate rifle that turns white patches green. Again, it is very accurate. It seems to have a porous bar that tends to get some copper in it. The last thing I'm going to do is try to hard to get that copper out, as it does not affect accuracy at all, and I don't want to damage the rifle.

again, find another excellent shooter and see if that person has accuracy issues with your rifle.

I agree with others, that it is more likely either an ammo issue, and/or a loose scope mount, or even a scope that maybe he needs repair.

 

[Lever Jac]

I have had two rifles that had so much chatter in the bore that they would lose accuracy after a few rounds from copper build up. If you don't have a bore scope you can take it to a gunsmith and have him take a look at it. Sometimes fire lapping can help a barrel like that.

 

[gunscrewguy]

Was it made by Remington?

AC

 

[Cowboy23*]

Was it made by Remington?

AC

Yes---good question---Remlin getting 8 inch grp at 50yrds would not surprise me at all. I saw a bunch on 336 with the canted front sight. I saw one with frt sight screw hole drilled all the way into the bore.

 

[Chrisj357]

Wow. 8” at 50yds. My 1980 vintage .357 gives me 3-4” at 50 yds free standing. I’m sure I could get 1-2” if I used a rest. I’ve never been disappointed with this 1894 .357.

 

[davewho]

I've owned a Model 1894 carbine (brass trigger) in .38/.357 for several years. It used to be a reasonably accurate rifle, but lately not so much.
I decided to put a scope on it since open sight accuracy deteriorated. I thought it was my eyesight.
All sight in shots were fired off a bagged rest with little or no wind, temps ranging through the mid 90s.
I mounted a Vortex 1x4x24 scope on it with conventional rings and base. I started sighting it in at 50 yards using 158gr JSP ammo. The best group I got was around 6". I blamed it on the ammo.
In the mean time I contacted Vortex, and they assured me that the scope could easily handle the sharp recoil of the .357 magnum loads.
I recently tried to sight it in at 75 yards, and I would be lucky to hit the broad side of a bear. This time I used PMC 158gr. JSP ammo. I was lucky to get a 12" group. I shifted to one of my old reloads. It's a 158gr. Hornady XTP FP with 11 grains of Blue Dot behind it. Accuracy improved to a 3 shot 8 inch group. In both cases hits were all over the area with no two grouping close.
This rifle has the micro-groove rifling. Is it possible that the rifling is totally fouled? I've cleaned it in the usual fashion using Hopes #9 with brushes and patches.
Any help would be appreciated. If I can't get some kind of accuracy out of it, the rifle may soon belong to someone else.

Did you ever figure this out? Did you do a thorough copper removal? IMWTK!
Respectfully…

 

[SargeMO]

Any decent cylinder bore riot gun will hold around 4" at 50 yards with common Super X slugs.

Ditch the Vortex and shoot it again with irons or another scope.