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Rachethead said:
Given the serial number of this gun, and the other noted herein, pre-date 1980, my theory is that here are two examples of early serial numbered frames finished into a gun and shipped at a later date. I've studied the surviving serial number records of LC Smith shotguns (and this company was purchased and run by Marlin for 5 years); and the truth is that very few guns are finished and shipped in numerical order.
Likewise with Winchester. Mine has a Marlin rubber buttpad, whiteline spacer, black plastic grip cap with a now off-white spacer ;D and rather nicely figured walnut for a Marlin. I'll fetch the camera tomorrow and post a pic.

My theory on books is that the authors "simplify" things for our feeble minds, rather than write up the facts... those irritating little things that would probably clarify all these otherwise muddy issues, but would louse up the reading! :eek: ;D
 

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The Carmichael gun your referring to is my 375 that was given to Grit's Gresham.This gun's serial # starts with 21 and is one of the first Marlin's in 375.The pad is also a prototype,instead of saying "Marlin" it just say's Pachmayr.Notice the way "375 Win" is hand stamped.I think the GB gun is a 336 that someone rebarreled.Caveat emptor!! http://photobucket.com/sqweeler i5
 

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Marlin barrels were stamped by the factory with different fonts at different times, my 375 with a 1983 serial number has square letters. The gun referenced has a more flowing font very similar to but not exactly like my 1951 336 A. The placement of the 375 on the barrel is also different from mine. Is there a reference work that documents the changes in the roll stamp? Judging by the discrepancy I suspect a rebore is likely. It's a shame there aren't more and clearer pictures.
 

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We are seeing more and more "counterfeit" guns assembled in someone's shop to extract a premium price from the uninformed buyer. A dealer once attempted to sell me a prototype Winchester 94 "that was made in 1951". Winchester made 5 of these rifles as a market test in caliber 44-40. He wanted about double the going price. It was, indeed, a factory rifle and barrel. The rifle, by serial number, was made in 1951. The barrel was also factory, however, by the roll stamp configuration was made in the 1970's. The rifle was what is known to collectors as a parts gun assembled from factory parts that are non-original. Let the buyer beware.

Anything is possible with factory assembly so I never say never but without proof those Marlins are just shooters no matter how good the accompanying story may be. Buy the gun not the story.
 

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Sure that kind of stuff goes on every day; but fakery is not the case in this instance as regards the barrel roll-stamp, which is/was my contention in response to Bull Snake. This gun was also not represented to be anything other than it was; and common sense dictates that if someone was indeed trying to fake a "rare M375" by duplicating a factory roll stamp, the custom stamping tool alone would have cost more than this rifle sold for. Bottom line here is that if this gun received a later after-market M375 barrel; then whoever did the work, did the job right and made the completed piece to exactly duplicate any other M375 with a 1980 and later serial number.
However, given that this thread has already received two other posts by MO members who also own original M375's with pre-1980 serial number stamps, one of which came new in the box and is still with the original owner; then the M375 that started this thread initially is simply another example of a factory produced M375 on an out-of-sequence numbered frame. something that happens with regularity in the gun manufacturing industry.
 

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I know this'un ain't fakery, even I threw the box out long ago; (or left it in the attic of my house in CA) :eek: I stole the filler out of it for my son's Winchester when I installed a tang sight on it. The original rear sight is in my parts drawer in the shop, need to reinstall one, huh?

I'll let others argue over the authenticity... namely my heirs, cause I don't plan on sellin' it. And its only the second rifle my son has said that he wants.







 

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Rachethead said:
Sure that kind of stuff goes on every day; but fakery is not the case in this instance as regards the barrel roll-stamp, which is/was my contention in response to Bull Snake. This gun was also not represented to be anything other than it was; and common sense dictates that if someone was indeed trying to fake a "rare M375" by duplicating a factory roll stamp, the custom stamping tool alone would have cost more than this rifle sold for. Bottom line here is that if this gun received a later after-market M375 barrel; then whoever did the work, did the job right and made the completed piece to exactly duplicate any other M375 with a 1980 and later serial number.
However, given that this thread has already received two other posts by MO members who also own original M375's with pre-1980 serial number stamps, one of which came new in the box and is still with the original owner; then the M375 that started this thread initially is simply another example of a factory produced M375 on an out-of-sequence numbered frame. something that happens with regularity in the gun manufacturing industry.
No one is questioning the roll stamp. We are saying that someone has changed the barrel, unscrewed the original barrel and installed a new one in 375 caliber. No one is accused of deception, he just wanted a 375. I do not believe it is original. I do not think that Marlin would bring out a new model rifle and build it on old parts. If Marlin did do that then let's see some proof, factory documentation not hearsay.
 

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No one is accused of deception, he just wanted a 375. I do not believe it is original. I do not think that Marlin would bring out a new model rifle and build it on old parts.
I've heard and read stories of the Model 93 sometimes being built as "factory parts guns", because of WWI and other factors. But I don't think this would have been the case when bringing out a new "high performance" caliber to the Marlin line up.
 

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""No one is questioning the roll stamp. We are saying that someone has changed the barrel, unscrewed the original barrel and installed a new one in 375 caliber. No one is accused of deception, he just wanted a 375. I do not believe it is original. I do not think that Marlin would bring out a new model rifle and build it on old parts. If Marlin did do that then let's see some proof, factory documentation not hearsay."

OK JB, then how do you explain away the M375 example pictured here with a pre-1980 serial number owned by MO members Griff, who said he purchased the gun new in the box. Also, no one here could explain to me why my 450MR had a serial number pre-dating the catalog announcement of this model by two years either; and my MR was also new in the box. Prototype M375's given to gun writers also had pre-1980 serial numbers; but were not roll-stamped because those guns were pre-production examples. Again, I think it far more likely that this gun is an original M375 built on a frame having a pre-1980 serial number than it is to be an after-market build. And by the way, gun companies don't use "old parts". For inventory purposes those parts are consisted new parts until they are used regardless of what the serial number stamp may be; and with the BATF involved, Marlin must account for every serial number they assign.
 

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Rachethead said:
OK JB, then how do you explain away the M375 example pictured here with a pre-1980 serial number owned by MO members Griff, who said he purchased the gun new in the box.
I don't need to explain anything, it's not my gun. I don't care how he came to have it. What I am trying to get across is that without some kind of proof the gun is just another 375 as are dozens or others in the hands of Marlin owners. Anyone can alter a gun, sometimes in very cleaver ways. Always buy the gun, not the story.

Also, no one here could explain to me why my 450MR had a serial number pre-dating the catalog announcement of this model by two years either; and my MR was also new in the box. Prototype M375's given to gun writers also had pre-1980 serial numbers; but were not roll-stamped because those guns were pre-production examples. Again, I think it far more likely that this gun is an original M375 built on a frame having a pre-1980 serial number than it is to be an after-market build.
I agree, you are probably correct, but to a collector, what you and I think doesn't amount to a bag of snot. Only the documentation.

And by the way, gun companies don't use "old parts". For inventory purposes those parts are consisted new parts until they are used regardless of what the serial number stamp may be; and with the BATF involved, Marlin must account for every serial number they assign.
Gun factories do use old parts. You just explained why, now don't debate your point. ;D Such parts are call New Old Stock, A receiver made four years ago I would not consider current production. Some parts are not dated so it doesn't matter but the receiver is marked with the date.
 

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I have a Marlin 1894 with serial prefix 22xxxxx made in 1978 in 44-40 caliber.It MUST be a prototype as they didnt make the 44-40 cal back then.The barrel is rollstamped 1894S 44-40.I dont have any documentation,but I wonder if I can sell it for big bucks. :eek:
 

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"Gun factories do use old parts. You just explained why, now don't debate your point. Grin Such parts are call New Old Stock, A receiver made four years ago I would not consider current production. Some parts are not dated so it doesn't matter but the receiver is marked with the date."

Come on JB, you know as well as I do that gun parts in the inventory of the gun maker are never considered, or counted as "old" parts; gun parts only become "New Old Stock" when they are sold out of that gun makers inventory to some outfit like Numrich.
 

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In our age of technology most things 4 years old (the receiver ) is not only old but obsolete. So you (and I) are obsolete[/]. ;D ;D It is only right that you should defend fellow obsolescence. ::) ::) ;D

No offense intended, just harassing you. We are not going to agree so we can disagree agreeably and leave it at that.
 

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Another, very plausible explanation might be found in looking at when the caliber was announced by Winchester ('76 or '77 IIRC) and Marlin's decision to build it on their 336 action. It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that they built rifles in advance of their "introduction" in order to have them ready toenter the supply chain and immediately available for retail purchase.

Hmmm. Sounds like an inquiry is called for... Would have liked an email address but, the phone still works. Result: My call to their customer service yielded a nice gentleman that only had Brophy's book to rely on. "Marlin has no serial number records specific to the Model 375." Yes, all 1980 production guns started with "20", but... since the model wasn't a 100% production run, (all guns in model built in one run), it's more probable, than simply possible, that Marlin took 336 actions out of production and put 375 barrels on them as they became available. And, held them as testing was completed and marketing got up to speed with catalog and sales. I know I bought this rifle in the 1st quarter of 1980, in preparation of a Spring bear hunt in CA. It was already in the dealers stock.

You'll not convince me that Model 375s couldn't have an earlier serial number than 1980. Actually, it would surprise me greatly if they didn't. Yes, it's more than likely the vast majority did, but I'm sure production was very small in the beginning, in order to "feel" the market before they began any large commitment. Sure seems like a prudent business practice to me.
 

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Hi Griff,

Don't let Rachethead see this but I agree with you completely. I would be surprised if Marlin did not build a few rifles before introduction. The Winchester 375 came out in 1978 and I would bet that Marlin immediately started building a few rifles.
 

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Hey Guys!! I'm actually new here, and I'm the one that bought the rifle in question from gunbroker. I too was a little surprised when I did a serial number search, just to find out it was made in '76, 4 years before Marlin introduced this caliber in there line-up. Really for me, as long as it is safe to shoot, I'm happy. This rifle is in great shape. I took off the handguard and there aren't any markings below it. Just a stamped looking piece of metal that hold the band on, there is also a small notch ground in the barrel, and one in the magazine tube. Is this normal markings???? ??? There is a marking on the barrel, next to the receiver, it looks like a oval with the letters JM inside it?????? Is there actually any difference between the 336's and a 375 receiver?? I plan to call Marlin tomorrow and see if they can shed any light on the situation, maybe they can at least tell me what caliber it left the factory as. Like I said as long as it's a safe gun, I'm happy with it!!
 
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