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I'm finally stepping into reloading for my 1895G. I bought a box of 405 gr. lazer cast and a box of 350 gr. Hornday RN. This year I will be hunting the West side of Washington and will try out the guide gun. I decided to load up the 350 gr. bullets to use this year thinking that load developement might be a little more forgiving with the jacketed bullets. I will be using new Winchester cases with cci200 primers. Here is the problem though.

Hornday reloading handbook states the ( marlin ) max. load of H4198 is 48.4 gr. w/ winchester case and Fed. 210 primer. No pressure given.

Hodgdon online data states the (lever action ) max load of H4198 is 54.0 gr. w/ winchester case and cci200 primer. Shows 39,300 cup.

I'm going to work up the load just like I have for my 30-06. Just don't know what max. to trust. I don't want to blow up or sell myself short either.

Another question . Why does it seem all the load data for cast bullets are at trapdoor levels. I also bought a lyman book for loading the cast. What are you guys running with cast? I 'm going to tackle the cast bullets next spring.

Thanks before hand for your responses. I have been a member for 2 years. Almost never log on. I just read your posts and learn.
 

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There is trap door data and Marlin lever action data for 45/70. I don't use Winchester brass, but I rarely go over 46 gr of 4198 and 42 for plinking.
 

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I just got my 45/70 a couple of months go and....like you....found the load data to be very confusing, its all over the place....I'm using 3031 so cant help you with the loads for your powder but I will offer this....I'm loading to about 1700 fps with 350gr cast bullets and that will do, niceley, for anything out there...I found 4 sources for load data and 2 of them were pretty close and far lower than the highest one....I used them as I believe the lower data was for trapdoor rifles...loading the big gun up to max takes the fun out of it for me....
 

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I am also new at reloading for the 45/70, and yes loads do seem all over the place. I think a lot of that is because of the different strengths of guns out there, and also different opinions on what those strengths are. Maybe there are legal issues too. I found the Lyman book for one to be very conservative, not seeing any load over 28,000 CUP for the Marlin and nothing over 38,000 CUP for Ruger #1. Then you can find others data that will max the Marlins out at 40,000 CUP. I noticed Lyman is also conservative in another cartridge I load for, the 45 Colt. I think the bottom line, especially for us beginners is to start low and work up. Not trust just looking for pressure signs because traditional pressure signs wont necessarily appear until you are way over. That leaves us with buying (and using) a chronograph. That seems the best, and $100 isn't that much to spend. Also, because there does seem to be a lot of difference of opinion in what a max load should be, I would not try to get the very max out of your gun. There are many subtle differences in components, the brass thickness being one, and different bullet seating depths another that can when added together put you way over the limits.
 

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The three levels for the 45-70 start at the Trap Door and go up to the Winchester 1886 and then the Ruger actions, some books only have one load and others have more data than others and this is where it is nice to have several manuals for comparison.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I have noticed that there are many levels ( trapdoor, marlin or "lever", and then Ruger no.1/3/bolt gun "strong actions").

Its just crazy that for the same 350gr. hornday RN the bullet maker lists the max load at 48.4 of H4198. Then the power maker Hodgdon list 48.5 of H4198 as the start load. Both data clearly states for marlin/ lever actions. Same cases. Different primers. OAL is even shorter with the hotter Hodgdon data.

As far as the cast. I figured I would have to spend more time with it. I have yet to find printed data for the 1895 loads without either having to hottrod a trapdoor load or go light with a ruger #1 type load.

I did get a chornograph and it seems to be a must have for this round. I have been researching for about a year now on reloading for the 45-70.
I looked at different calibers in the same two books. 30-06 data is only 1 grain difference between the two sources.
 

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janott said:
this is where it is nice to have several manuals for comparison.
How very true!! ;)

When starting a new load - I always go the the powder manufacturers data first, then to an independent source next, like Lyman, and finally to Hodgdon's online site...Somewhere in the middle of that data. I'll pick a starting load... :)
 

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ultramag77 said:
I'm finally stepping into reloading for my 1895G. I bought a box of 405 gr. lazer cast and a box of 350 gr. Hornday RN. This year I will be hunting the West side of Washington and will try out the guide gun. I decided to load up the 350 gr. bullets to use this year thinking that load developement might be a little more forgiving with the jacketed bullets. I will be using new Winchester cases with cci200 primers. Here is the problem though.

Hornday reloading handbook states the ( marlin ) max. load of H4198 is 48.4 gr. w/ winchester case and Fed. 210 primer. No pressure given.

Hodgdon online data states the (lever action ) max load of H4198 is 54.0 gr. w/ winchester case and cci200 primer. Shows 39,300 cup.

I'm going to work up the load just like I have for my 30-06. Just don't know what max. to trust. I don't want to blow up or sell myself short either.

Another question . Why does it seem all the load data for cast bullets are at trapdoor levels. I also bought a lyman book for loading the cast. What are you guys running with cast? I 'm going to tackle the cast bullets next spring.

Thanks before hand for your responses. I have been a member for 2 years. Almost never log on. I just read your posts and learn.


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I use 26.5 grs. of IMR 4759 with 405's out of my BPCR silhouette gun to practice with at 200 and 300.I hunt with the same load in my Browning 1886.They're going about 1400 fps.Did you get the Lyman #4 cast bullet book or#3 or #49?
 

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+1 here for being confusing.....

The only consistent part about reloading is that nothing is ever consistent!
 

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Hey Ultramag, +1 for the chrono purchase; pressure signs on 45-70 brass apparently are not easily identified so by paying attention to your speeds you'll know when you're at/near max regardless of powder charge. I hope someone more experienced than I will call me out if what I'm saying is completely off base.

I worked on the 350gr RN w/ H4198 just shy of Hodgdon max without a whole lot of success; atleast as far as a postal match grouping goes. Tried some H322 and have been seeing some improved groups without nearly the same kinda recoil:)

Good luck on your hunts this year! Matt
 

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Talk about strange data---check out some of the older manuals for the 7mm Rem. Mag. Some of the max loads vary by 8 grains for the same bullet weight.

??????
Hip
 

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Hipshot said:
Talk about strange data---check out some of the older manuals for the 7mm Rem. Mag. Some of the max loads vary by 8 grains for the same bullet weight.

??????
Hip
If you are comparing old manuals data to new, sometimes I think it could be that the difference is because the powder specs have changed. That is one area that I find particularly crazy that the same powder name can be different depending on when it was made. Is a good reason to hang onto those old manuals I suppose.
 

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I haven't looked up those loads but as you look at data confirm the powder don't mistake Imr4350 and H4350. Make sure it is a jacketed bullet or a cast. but yes some data's don't add up.
Also cup and psi. But if your data is right and you stay AOL you will do fine. Don't trust posted loads on blogs, Yes most will be right but type-o's and smart a$$es are everywhere.
 

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me said:
I haven't looked up those loads but as you look at data confirm the powder don't mistake Imr4350 and H4350. Make sure it is a jacketed bullet or a cast. but yes some data's don't add up.
Also cup and psi. But if your data is right and you stay AOL you will do fine. Don't trust posted loads on blogs, Yes most will be right but type-o's and smart a$$es are everywhere.
Check out the burn rate charts to compare powders like IMR4350 and H4350 should be very close.
 

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ultramag77 said:
I'm finally stepping into reloading for my 1895G. I bought a box of 405 gr. lazer cast and a box of 350 gr. Hornday RN. This year I will be hunting the West side of Washington and will try out the guide gun. I decided to load up the 350 gr. bullets to use this year thinking that load developement might be a little more forgiving with the jacketed bullets. I will be using new Winchester cases with cci200 primers. Here is the problem though.

Hornday reloading handbook states the ( marlin ) max. load of H4198 is 48.4 gr. w/ winchester case and Fed. 210 primer. No pressure given.

Hodgdon online data states the (lever action ) max load of H4198 is 54.0 gr. w/ winchester case and cci200 primer. Shows 39,300 cup.

I'm going to work up the load just like I have for my 30-06. Just don't know what max. to trust. I don't want to blow up or sell myself short either.

Another question . Why does it seem all the load data for cast bullets are at trapdoor levels. I also bought a lyman book for loading the cast. What are you guys running with cast? I 'm going to tackle the cast bullets next spring.

Thanks before hand for your responses. I have been a member for 2 years. Almost never log on. I just read your posts and learn.
Hornady is more conservative with their data than Hodgdons, Hodgdons usually is one of the hottest. Are the max velocities similar? If they are I'd use that as a max as long as I got there before or at Hodgdons max useing the same components. Most cast data is mild for a couple reasons, one being mild loads are what most guys useing lead are looking for & you usually cant go near as fast with cast as with jacketed.
I generally use 25 gr of 2400 under a cast 405. Jacketed I like 3031 under a 350 or the same 2400 load under a 405 Rem.

Anyway the max listed in a manual is not written in stone, as I'm sure you know. Sometimes you can reach it & sometimes you cant. I recomend these books, http://www.loadbooks.com/ They have compiled data from different bullet & powder makers into one book with places for notes etc. For me they are great. You can look in many cases at what both the maker of your bullet recomends & what the powder maker recomends. You can look at what several bullet makers recomend for a particular weight bullet & the powder of your choice. They are simply fantastic IMO & I get one every time I get a new caliber.
 

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Too much information can be confusing. If you use Hodgden powder, use Hodgden reloading data. If you can't find data specifically for lever actions call or e-mail Hodgden and ask. They are helpfull because they want you to use their powder. The 45-70 is confusing because of the 3 loading pressure ranges. This is why Marlin developed the 450 marlin cartridge. There is only one pressure range and no confusion. Unfortunately Marlin no longer catalogs the 450 but Browning does.
 
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